Public Accounts Committee on June 15th, 2023

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

The part that you have assumed, though, is that it is not illegal, by making a reference to the fact that it's not a whistle-blower.

What I'm saying, Mr. Cappe, is that it's a strange position to make when we lack the clarity of the truth here. That's why I believe—just like you, I think—that the truth is most important and should prevail here.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

We agree.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

That's why I'm of the belief that a public inquiry is important. We've spoken about that. It's something that members of the foundation have disagreed with. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why they believe that. You made a very interesting position that you believe nothing illegal is going on, because [Inaudible—Editor] not a whistle-blower.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

If it was illegal, Bob Fife and Steve Chase deserve to have their licences to be journalists removed, which they don't have anyway, but if they found something illegal, they should have written about it.

The only thing they found illegal was that this individual released secrets that are illegal to release. Imagine if the journalists had written that “we're not releasing the identity of the source because the pedophile would be subject to a prosecution under the Criminal Code”. You wouldn't accept that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cappe. We'll come back to this.

We're turning now to Mr. Kram for the last five minutes, and then we'll go off to vote.

You have the floor, sir, for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Cappe, for joining us today.

Let's rewind the clock back to 2002. What I find so interesting about this particular organization is that the initial grant was not for a specific project. This was for an endowment that would exist in perpetuity. Are you aware of any precedents for the federal government creating such an endowment? You mentioned the Governor General earlier in the meeting.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Again, those were similar in some respects in the sense that there was an endowment created for the Institute for Canadian Citizenship, I think it was called, that was created when Adrienne Clarkson stepped down as Governor General.

There were also a number of other...and my memory fails me here, but we got into a parliamentary dispute because the Auditor General didn't like the government giving out money at the end of the year. You may recall that when there was money left over at the end of the year, the government would look around and pay down debt, but every now and then it would take a lump sum and give it to an institution. I forget what examples there were. I should have looked it up before I came to you today, but that was a dispute where the Auditor General disputed that the government should be able to give that money away at year-end spending.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay.

You mentioned Adrienne Clarkson and her institute. Are directors from that institute appointed by Adrienne Clarkson's family, to your knowledge?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

That is, to the best of my knowledge, the case. There was an institution created and then it perpetuates itself.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay.

With Adrienne Clarkson's institution or the Trudeau Foundation, when these institutions were being set up, was any concern ever raised about the governance structure, about having one particular family appoint directors in perpetuity?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Not that I'm aware of.... I was involved in the Canadian Partnership Against Cancer. I was on the board. I was vice-chair for five of six years on the board. That was created by the Harper government. There was one board member who was appointed by the government, and the rest were all appointed by the members. The board itself would take off the hat of board member and be a member of the institution.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

On the public accounts committee, we deal with reports from the Auditor General on a regular basis—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Kram, I'm going to pause it right there. I agreed to 15 minutes. While you have two minutes left, I think I'll pause it there. I should have said that I'd allow three more speakers, but I said “15 minutes”, and we're at that time. I'm going to cut you off there. You'll have two full minutes when we return.

Mr. Cappe, if you wouldn't mind just bearing with us, we'll come back to you, I hope within 30 minutes. I think there's just a single vote.

I'm going to suspend this meeting.

Mr. Desjarlais, do you have a point that you would like to raise?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes. With unanimous consent, maybe we can allow just two minutes for Mr. Kram to finish.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll look to see if I have it, but I had agreed to 15 minutes.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I have a guest coming to dinner in one hour.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right. Very good.

[An hon. member]

What are we having, Mr. Cappe?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will suspend this meeting, and we will see you back here as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to bring us back into committee business.

Mr. Cappe, I know you have a dinner reservation. I'm going to do everything I can to get you there. I also have other requests for other social events, so there's lots going on here. I'm also aware of your request for a minute. You'll be given that shortly.

First, let me go back to Michael Kram, who has the floor for just over two minutes, please.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Cappe, for staying with us.

Here on the public accounts committee, we review Auditor General's reports all the time. It's a very useful function of government for parliamentarians to be able to make recommendations to improve the functions of government.

There does seem to be a breakdown in accountability when we have an organization such as the Trudeau Foundation receiving a $100-million grant and then basically being told, “Good luck to you.”

In your opinion, would it be in the public's interest if the Auditor General was able to audit entities such as the Trudeau Foundation to provide a greater level of accountability to Parliament and to the public?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

This is one of the issues I wanted to raise, Mr. Chair.

In response to Mr. Kram, let me say no. This isn't something that I think would benefit from that. Let me explain why.

In response to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, there is something I should have raised.

I was president of the Institute for Research on Public Policy in Montreal after I left the government. The IRPP was created in the government of Pierre Elliott Trudeau. He created a little inquiry, if you will, but it wasn't a public inquiry. It was a piece that came up with a report, a task force, that said there should be an institute for research on public policy like the Brookings Institution, and IRPP was created.

IRPP was given $10 million by the government of the day. I had said to Madam Sinclair-Desgagné that I couldn't remember any other institution, yet I was the president of one of them, so I feel guilty about that. The fact was, we were an institution that was created by government.

There's another one. Again, I was involved with it, although it doesn't have the money from the government. I've been drinking from the Canadian Blood Services cup that I have been using. I was the chair of the board of Canadian Blood Services for four years. It was created, as we unfortunately can recall, after the tainted blood scandal. It didn't get money from the federal government except to do research, but it got money from provincial governments. There was an obligation to have an independent auditor. I go back...Mr. Desjarlais was emphasizing independence. It is an independent auditor, but it isn't the Auditor General.

That's my answer, Mr. Kram.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Cappe. I appreciate that.

Turning to Mr. Sidhu, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witness for being here today.

Mr. Cappe, you said you wanted to clarify something or finish off previous remarks that got cut off. You can finish those now, if you want.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Well, it was actually for Madam Sinclair-Desgagné.

There was a process at Treasury Board to approve the criteria included in the endowment agreement.

That was one point.

The only other one goes back to Mr. Desjarlais.

I'm the one, curiously, who is defending Parliament here. I'm telling you that Parliament has created legislation that has to be respected. That is the Security of Information Act. I want to make sure that no public servant takes it upon themself to make a judgment that they know better than Parliament.

That's my point.

Thank you, Mr. Sidhu.