Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 24th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'm afraid that's your time, Ms. Yip.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the people who I recognize.

Mr. Wright, I want to point out that I probably made you practice your French a lot, which was impeccable throughout your visit, even when you spoke about technical matters. Congratulations.

Mr. Hayes, I want to tell you that I find the Auditor General's report quite positive. At the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, we are used to reviewing reports that are more incisive or that identify more problems. In this report, the recommendations are interesting. Can you comment on how you intend to act on them?

The essential thing I took away from the report is that one of the main recommendations was to recognize that decision-making could be fragmented. If that doesn't change, what could the consequences be?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that changing elements that have already been built or are being built could be problematic in terms of project costs and timelines.

When the department waits for decisions, that impacts all aspects of the project. The project is so complex that decisions have to be made in a timely manner, even though there are so many partners involved within Parliament, the cities of Ottawa and Gatineau, and a Crown corporation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

As to the potential impact on cost increases, do you have any idea what they could represent?

[Andrew Hayes]

It is difficult for an auditor to estimate that right now.

I would note however that construction costs have changed since the pandemic. Certain studies from the office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer have indicated that some costs have increased in the current context.

There was a budget for the project, but the amounts were calculated in 2021, so it is possible that costs have increased since then.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

I would also like to know whether your audit included the procurement method used for materials.

Since the reconstruction of Parliament, with its strong symbolic significance, is a costly endeavour, did you consider using a procurement process that is equitable for all regions, provinces and territories?

Did you consider that aspect in preparing your report?

Did you draw any conclusions that you would like to share?

[Andrew Hayes]

We looked at the contracts and the processes and did not identify any problems. I cannot comment on geographic distribution, however.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

My next question will be for the officials from Public Works and Government Services then.

What strategy did you use to ensure that the materials are sourced from all parts of Canada?

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you for the question. I think it is very important.

How do we establish a procurement strategy and award contracts?

We have two main suppliers, PCL Construction and EllisDon. We have been assured that the materials they use come from all over the country.

I have asked whether that list of materials could be made public.

I know we work with roughly 500 suppliers who provide cement and various other materials, but I don't know their technical names in English or French. I also know that the supply chain is made up of suppliers who, for the most part—93% or 94%—are from all over Canada.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you know the breakdown by province?

[Arianne Reza]

I think so.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I would appreciate it if you could provide that information to us.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have one minute left.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Ms. Raza, do you have those figures at hand? Can you give us some more information?

[Arianne Reza]

I will ask Mr. Wright to give you the details.

[Robert Wright]

Yes, I can give you more information.

As of now, we have concluded contracts with Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba and Nova Scotia. We have a strategy to ensure that we use Canadian companies and that the materials come from Canada, of course. That is not possible, however, for all the materials and all the companies.

For example, 22 of the 53 Peace Tower bells are now in the Netherlands for restoration. We can't do that work here, and the British company that cast those bells is no longer in business.

The capabilities of certain industries are limited, world-wide. As the deputy minister stated, most of the contracts—93.7% of them—are Canadian currently, and they are spread out all over the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being present.

It's not very often in this place, in particular this committee, that we see such an audit. It's often—and I'm sure the Auditor General's Office can attest to this—more severe. I want to commend the auditor and, of course, the entire team for your work. It's not often that we see this level of compliance, but also this level of good work. I want to thank you on behalf of the folks in my riding, but also Canadians writ large. It's an important task you're undertaking, restoring the seat of Canadian democracy, and I think Canadians value that.

I, myself, have not been able to tour Centre Block, but I do know, of course, from my previous time in this place, how much work was needed there. It's an incredible undertaking, and it is easy to underestimate the reality of just how difficult it really is to restore a historical building of this significance. Just the care and concern you have taken in the review.... The audit seems to be done quite well.

However, I do want to note a particular aspect that was outlined in the audit. I'll turn to the Auditor General's Office first. It's in relation to the GBA+ analysis. What were the answers given by the departments, when asked why they had not conducted an analysis?

[Andrew Hayes]

The response to the recommendation pointed to the fact that a lens of gender-based analysis plus was applied to the long-term vision and plan, which is the overarching part of the project, Centre Block being a component of it.

Our view was that a careful look should be taken of Centre Block and the Visitor Centre, because of the essential nature of this. The fact is that this is where the public will be looking, and this is where the public will be engaging.

From our perspective, having a clear view of all the elements that should be taken into consideration in a GBA+ analysis for decision-making is important. It's true that on the environmental, on the accessibility, and even on some consultation with indigenous communities, the department has done some work. We think this is an area that's important for a follow-up.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much for that, Auditor.

I have spoken in some capacity with the Algonquin. The Algonquin folks, in particular, have been very concerned about a project across the street for some time now. That's in relation to the former American embassy, which sits on Algonquin territory today. It was the position of the government that they would see this building restored—I'm using this as a case example—but also bring greater inclusivity and participation of the Algonquin.

In my conversation with them, it seems as though those conversations have not met their expectations. I understand there's a continued discussion, in particular regarding that site, as to how they can continue to be included. Barring having another instance where there is a protest at that building by the Algonquin for the lack of participation by them, do you anticipate this process and lessons learned from that instance on how to better include indigenous folks? That question is for the department.

[Arianne Reza]

Let me circle back to your initial question about what we've done on GBA+, because I think it is important to note that we do have a long-term vision and plan for the Parliamentary precinct, and we have a robust GBA+ report framework that guides that. It was produced and published in 2017.

Given, as we've heard from the Auditor General, the importance of Centre Block and the fact that it's going to integrate the West Block and East Block, and that there is going to be the visitor welcome centre and the operations, bringing in an updated GBA+, including inclusivity across the universal access-designed pathways, indigenous, HVAC systems to make sure that we can do smudging.... I think that's a critical piece that we want to strengthen, but I wouldn't want to leave committee members with the impression that the work wasn't under way. It's a key piece.

As it relates to where we are on the specific site that you were referring to, perhaps we can turn to Rob for an update of the latest. Obviously, this is an area of significant collaboration between the Algonquin and the federal government.

How that fits into next stages in the work, I leave to you.

[Robert Wright]

Thank you very much for the question. It's an important one.

We've continued to work very closely with Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, with the Algonquin Anishinabe nation and with the national indigenous organizations.

The thrust of that work has been around determining an Algonquin-dedicated space within what was originally labelled the indigenous peoples' space. That has made some important progress. We're not collectively quite at the finish line on that, that's for sure, but there's been some good progress, I would say, with the Algonquin nation in coming to a position where a dedicated Algonquin space could be fit within the broader project, which would be important. That would be at the heart of the block 2 redevelopment, for which construction will be starting next year.

To your point on lessons learned, I would say that one important thing that has really created a tight relationship is lots of communication. We've done visioning sessions on Centre Block and the Parliament welcome centre with the Algonquin Anishinabe and the three national indigenous organizations for the design team, CENTRUS, on the Centre Block and Parliament welcome centre. They've brought on, with our work, indigenous architects: an Inuk architect, a Métis architect and a first nation architect.

It also informed our approach to the block 2 redevelopment. As you may be aware, we did an international design competition for that, with a jury that had three members of Parliament and six indigenous members on it. The winning firms were Zeidler and Chipperfield, and there is also a wholly indigenous-owned firm, Two Row, out of southwestern Ontario.

I would say that this has really created a very dynamic engagement on indigenous people being very engaged on the future redevelopment of the parliamentary precinct.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We'll move now to Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Witnesses, thanks for being with us today.

I have a very quick question to start. Ms. Reza, maybe it's best for you or Mr. Wright.

Are we still looking at 2031 to move into the new old place? Are we still on budget? If so, what is the expected budget? I notice that it showed $4.5 billion to $5 billion, but what are we looking at right now?

[Arianne Reza]

I'll start with the move-in date, and then move the technical budget question to Rob.

First off, we are still on track for 2031 for the construction to be completed. There will be up to a year for user testing, commissioning of the building and ensuring that we have all the pieces working correctly.