Public Accounts Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Shanahan.

I want to continue my line of questioning related to housing capacity and the isolation units that were openly promised to indigenous nations, including the nations that I represented during this pandemic. What are the deputy minister's comments related to the housing crisis on reserves and the inability of our stockpile to accommodate situations where isolation was required?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for the question. I'll say three things.

The first thing is that we definitely agree that the housing challenge and overcrowding had an impact throughout COVID-19. Overcrowding does present huge challenges for health. That would be my first point.

My second point would be around temporary isolation and alternative accommodations. We did provide infrastructure for temporary isolation requirements for communities, and that was also because of conversations we had with leadership who did not necessarily want to use the school gym or the school library, just because of what it meant for the children in their communities, so there were some isolation units sent across the country. There were different types for different purposes, and that was one strategy. The second was alternate accommodation outside the community. In cases of very vulnerable populations, they were flown out to a hub, perhaps in Winnipeg, where they would be in isolation hotels where we would provide some support.

My final comment would be that throughout the omicron crisis, because of the spread, when it hit a household, we had to make determinations, because sometimes people would isolate at home, which meant that the support shifted from isolation outside the home to supports within the home, and that meant food deliveries, wellness checks and ensuring well-being in the isolation of individuals at that time.

But I will say wholeheartedly that overcrowding was a challenge.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How many isolation units?

[Christiane Fox]

I will have to get that for you. I don't think I have the exact number across the country, but I will get that to the committee for sure.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I believe that's probably time for this round, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It is.

Actually, in fact, Madame Sinclair-Desgagné asked to switch with you, so if you want to keep going for another three minutes, you have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much to both my colleagues, Madam Shanahan and Nathalie.

I want to continue now to speak specifically about consultation. I think consultation is one of the keystones in making sure we have strong partnerships in Canada. I've seen good, successful partnerships. I've seen government in fact do these partnerships and be part of some amazing partnerships, but there are some that have continued to lack. I think this is where one of these areas exists: within health. I know it was mentioned that you worked with some of these 51 nations.

Specifically, how many of the 51 nations were consulted directly by you and senior members of the ministry?

[Christiane Fox]

By me, I did a number of all-chiefs meetings throughout the different COVID pandemic time periods. For instance, I would have done the all-Saskatchewan chiefs committee. I did the all-Ontario chiefs committee. I did direct outreach to Cross Lake, Berens River or Shamattawa when there was a particular issue.

This has been an extremely challenging situation for the entire department. I would say that we have regional offices across the country and regional health directors that liaise directly with a band and council. I have spent a lot of my personal time getting back to chiefs directly, speaking to them directly, for them to know that they have an option if they need some supports, but I have to empower our regions as well, obviously, to work directly with them. All 51 have been consulted. All 51 we had regular engagement with, and even—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm sorry, but I have limited time, Deputy Minister. I want to ask one more question.

When you say “consulting”, there's a difference between discussion and consulting. Of course, with consultation, that framework requires an ongoing dialogue.

I spoke to the grand chief of Treaty 8 last week, and they mentioned that they did not prefer the consultation scheme currently being employed by the government. They thought it was inappropriate and it was diminishing of their nation-to-nation rights and treaty obligations. Would you agree?

[Christiane Fox]

I spoke to Treaty 8 two nights ago. I spent a couple of hours with them, because they did not feel that we should be engaging broadly on our health legislation. The message I had for the chiefs of Treaty 8 was, “We want to hear from you. We respect the treaty relationship. You may not agree with health legislation at the end of the day. You may not want to take this path, but let's together figure out the path you do want to take. That dialogue will be important.”

They gave us a series of dates when they want to sit down. They also want to have this conversation with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations. I heard from them directly, and I did hear their frustration.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm really pleased to hear that. That's remarkable.

What about the Métis settlements consultation?

[Christiane Fox]

We have ongoing conversations with the Métis settlements. We have ongoing conversations with the MNC and with the MMF. We did a lot of work with the MMF during the pandemic, as opposed to—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Not the MMF but the Métis settlements.... Have you consulted with them?

[Christiane Fox]

I have not consulted directly with the Métis settlements, no.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much.

My question is very brief. We are discussing a broad topic, and I would like Ms. Fox to give me a short answer.

Do you allocate funding to various groups according to needs, so according to demand, or in proportion to on‑reserve population?

[Christiane Fox]

We do a bit of both. We were providing specific amounts based on population. There were two funding streams. There was the public health stream and there was the stream encompassing food safety and perimeter security for the community. By using those two streams, we provided direct funding to all the communities. In addition to that, there was a way to allocate money to target needs. We really made to ensure that the process for accessing those funds would be quick.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

According to the figures I have on hand, in 2019, for instance, Indigenous Services Canada gave a 7% of its resources to indigenous peoples of Quebec, even though they account for 11% of Canada's total indigenous population.

How do you explain that discrepancy?

[Christiane Fox]

Are those figures global or do they concern only health? I am not 100%—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Fortunately, there was still no pandemic. So it was globally speaking.

[Christiane Fox]

I think it may also come from different funding sources. I will have to check that.

There are different ways to do things. Some funding is provided to communities based on programs. Some communities have had a 10‑year agreement and they are receiving a more long-term funding block. Some communities have been transformed, especially in the Quebec context. In Quebec, for example, an umbrella organization such as the FNEC, the First Nations Education Council, would have been able to receive funding because it represents its 22 member communities. That organization would receive funding [technical difficulties] indigenous for education because it provides services to its 22 member communities.

It depends a little bit on the context. Those are examples that come to mind to answer your question.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes, but very quickly, that funding would always come from the department of Indigenous Services Canada. So, regardless of whether it is going to education or to an umbrella organization, does the funding always basically come from Indigenous Services Canada or can it come from other departments?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I would ask for a very brief answer, please.

[Christiane Fox]

Funding comes from us, but there is also funding that would come from other departments. For example, housing funding may come from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We will turn now to MP Patzer, please.

You have five minutes, sir.