Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you commit to meeting with all treaty chiefs of Treaty 8 and, in addition, all tribal treaty chiefs in Alberta? In addition, do you commit to at least a minimum engagement that provides direct consultation to first nations governments and their citizens by way of ensuring they are clear about the legislative priorities you have while also ensuring their words and their advice are actually put into the legislation?

The biggest concern they have here, largely, is in relation to the term you use, which is “co-development”. They earnestly believe that it's not co-development. That's a concern, Minister. You can't say that you've co-developed these things when your partner is not saying the same thing. It's like going to a dance party and saying, “I'm dancing with this person”, and there is no one dancing. Whom are you co-developing this with?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you for that. You're right: The word “co-development” is a challenging space because this has never been tried before. Never in the history of this country has a law been developed with indigenous peoples, and I would imagine that there will be lots of different perspectives on the depth of the engagement, on the true nature of co-development and on whether this approach is co-development.

I am certain that there will be feedback on how better to do the creation of law in this country with indigenous peoples. I know that the UN declaration act this Liberal government passed will provide many useful tools for our first nations people, indigenous people, into the future in having a much more active role in creating law, and I look forward to the way Parliament will be thoughtful about proposing amendments. What happens when amendments are proposed by Conservatives, for example, that may weaken the legislation or strengthen it? How will the NDP interact with first nations partners as they consider which amendments to propose? How will the NDP do their own consultation to make sure that it's not...? What happens if there's a conflict between Treaty 8 and Treaty 6? So—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

You're the minister and you're the government here, and you can ask these—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—I look forward to the—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Minister, this is my time. You can ask the parties these questions, and you can ask those questions and you can stand here today. I'm not going to berate you, nor will I participate in any kind of process that would undermine the good work of first nations.

I think the question is simple.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Good question, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

They only want to know if you're going to work directly with them.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My response is that I have worked very closely with first nations through this process, and I will continue to endeavour to consult with indigenous leaders who wish to be part of this process.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you.

Mr. Vidal, you now have five minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to follow up on the conversation, but I'm going to stick to graduates for a bit, because I have a couple of questions that I didn't get to, Minister.

In the briefing document that your department prepared for you when you appeared at INAN back in March, they included some statistics on education attainment of first nations secondary school diploma equivalency. In your opening comments, you talked about those statistics and how the improvements were happening.

In the meeting then, I challenged you—and we did a bit here earlier today—that the data from your own departmental results don't line up with those statistics. In fact, the data in your own departmental results reports indicate that graduation rates for on-reserve students have declined from 41% to 34.2%.

I'm curious. Did you ever question your officials on the discrepancy between those two sets of numbers after we had the conversation back in March?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will turn to the deputy to speak to that—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No. I asked if you questioned the officials on the discrepancy in the numbers that were provided to you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm very fortunate to work very closely with all of the officials at this table, so of course we have extensive conversations about education, about water, about infrastructure and about committee appearances, so—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

My question was simply whether you ever questioned them about the discrepancy in those numbers. I don't think your officials.... I am asking you if you did.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, of course, and I would like to turn to the deputy to give you some responses on that.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay. Be brief, please.

[Gina Wilson]

Briefly, any increase in student graduation is positive, I would say.

In November 2022, we did advise this committee that we were developing a new graduation rate methodology. We actually did that in consultation with first nations organizations, because they told us very clearly that they did not want us to develop unilaterally established targets, so—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Deputy Minister, just for clarity, that wasn't my question.

I just want to be clear. My question was about the difference in the speaking notes that were provided for the minister and what the actual departmental results spoke of, and there were clearly some discrepancies there. To me, the fact is that we have these Statistics Canada numbers that are being put before the minister and that display progress on something, but within the departmental results we're not seeing that same progress. That was the frustrating component and that's why I am drilling into this. The frustrating part for me is that, at best, that displays some level of incompetence—and I hate to say that—but at worst, it displays an attempt to be deceptive. We're actually not even talking in public about our own departmental results reports. That's the frustrating part for me.

This is a department that, under this core responsibility area—which I know you're changing to something new next year—had a $10-billion budget in 2022-23 and utilized 300 additional FTEs over what was planned, and overall the department met 17% of the targets they set for themselves in that fiscal year. That's the frustration.

I would suggest, Minister, that for four years now I've heard from the Auditor General, from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, from first nations witnesses at both this committee and INAN, and from people on the ground—as my colleague MP Desjarlais just talked about—who are exhausted by some of the inadequacies and frustrations with the department.

Quite frankly, the elephant in the room and the roadblock to actually achieving outcomes is some of the bureaucracy that happens in the department when we're focused on changing goals and moving targets so that accountability never falls in the laps of the people in the room, so to speak. The lives of first nations, Inuit and Métis people should not be a make-work project for this department, and they should not be treated as such.

There may be some success in the context of saving jobs and whatnot, but that's being done at the cost of indigenous people across our country. Frankly, it's my job, Minister, to hold you accountable, and it's your job to hold them accountable. I am asking how you are doing that. How are you holding them accountable for some of these things I'm talking about?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I hold the officials accountable every single day and I do it through honest, open communication and collaboration and, quite frankly, an insistence that we work at the behest of first nations with first nations using a first nations-determined approach.

I would say that the department, led by this incredible indigenous woman, who has been not only a civil servant but a proud member of Kitigan Zibi, and who has a really good ground-level understanding of what happens in community and what happens in government, gives me comfort. Actually, MP Vidal, we now have, at CIRNAC and Indigenous Services Canada, indigenous women who have lived the reality in community and who have also lived the reality as long-time civil servants, who give me what I would say is exceptional advice.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Are you saying that meeting 17% of targets is exceptional service?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you, Minister Hajdu.

Mr. Vidal, your time is up.

There are just 11 and a half minutes left before the vote.

Ms. Khalid, you can speak for the amount of time needed. We'll then let the MPs go and vote.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for coming in today.

I'll continue a little bit with what I hope MP Vidal was trying to say.

Minister, over 150 years later we are now prioritizing the work you have been doing so diligently. There have been 143 long-term advisories lifted; there has been significant work on education in indigenous and first nation communities, and there is that nation-to-nation community building that is happening.

Minister, how do you ensure the longevity and permanence of the work you are doing, regardless of which government is in power, to make sure that all of this is not at the whim of whichever government is going to prioritize it or not?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's such a great question.

I think there are a couple of different elements of longevity. One is legislation that exists and that sets the Government of Canada on a path of commitment to first nations and, in the area of equity, as I mentioned, equal funding for services for first nations and services that exist in non-indigenous communities and municipalities oftentimes adjacent to that community.

The second thing, I would say, is the legal tools we provided through things like the UN declaration act, which will ensure that indigenous peoples have the legal tools they need not just to continue that progress, but—and I think this is sad—to fight for the rights our government has established in law, with future governments that maybe don't understand or don't care about the rights of indigenous peoples.

There is a lot of...I would just call it racism and systemic discrimination, both inside of government and outside of government. MPs come to this table, as you know, with wildly different experiences and beliefs, and the law that our government has passed to provide that framework will help to prevent, I would say, ongoing systemic oppression through, for example, a reduction of funding levels or through the removal of first nations care and control over many aspects of everyday functioning. That would be a huge step backwards, to be honest.

What I would expect, actually, after eight years of being involved.... Let's not forget that, indeed, Stephen Harper refused to meet with first nations leaders on a regular basis. Our Prime Minister, as you know, commits to meeting with all of the distinctions-based groups at the national level and at the regional level very frequently. At the national level, it's at least once a year. There are formalized mechanisms of meeting with indigenous peoples and leaders across this country. Those exist because of the leadership of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party.

Quite frankly, I think the expectation has been raised, and I hope that any party that wins government in the future will understand the importance of those relationships—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Minister Hajdu, I have to cut you off here. I must keep my promise and let the MPs go.

I let you speak for two extra minutes. The MPs must now go and vote if they want to.

Minister Hajdu, do you want to join us after the vote? I'm asking because this meeting is very important for everyone.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm not able to come back after the vote, but I will obviously be here at your invitation in the future. I appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you.