Evidence of meeting #88 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was education.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Madam Chair, could I have 30 or 45 seconds to respond?
November 30th, 2023 / 12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I want to acknowledge some of the back-and-forth we've had on education targets, because it's been a long and very unsatisfactory discussion. I realize that. We've been having it since 2018, when it comes to education targets. It's really unfortunate.
While calls for targets have been occurring at this committee, much has been changing at the programmatic level with standards, and there have been all types of changes in various programs. There has been a co-developing transformation in education with a commitment to developing new methodology within that timeline as well.
Essentially, because first nations criticized our methodology and the OAG criticized our methodology, we actually didn't want to spend a lot of time trying to reinvest in that methodology. We didn't want to rely on it.
We hope—
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné
Mr. Dalton, your time is up. I can give you five more seconds.
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
We really hope to reset this discussion today, if we can, by being allowed to explain the new methodology that we developed with first nations.
Thank you.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thanks, Madam Chair.
I will continue with questions that first nations have supplied me with. These are important questions they expect answers to.
First nations are deeply concerned—as are people everywhere—about sustainable and long-term access to water. Water on reserve links to those who are off reserve. I recall the minister saying that in her testimony.
How is Canada ensuring that first nations jurisdictions under treaty are not further undermined through federal water legislation?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
That's a very good question. I will ask Nelson to respond to that.
Certainly, source water issues and jurisdiction have come up very frequently as part of this engagement.
12:45 p.m.
Director General, Community Infrastructure, Department of Indigenous Services
Thank you for the question.
I think the adherence to rights among first nations—nations being stewards over their own affairs—was a core component of the previous iteration of the legislation, which was the consultation draft shared with many first nations, including Alberta first nations. That consultation draft spoke about many things. I would probably highlight that the first few paragraphs of that draft spoke about rights and first nations controlling the regulatory, water and legal affairs in their communities. We're hopeful that, should we have the opportunity to bring legislation into the House, those rights would be underscored and we would be able to legislate those rights, in response to questions from chiefs in Alberta.
I appreciate the question. Please thank them for us.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I have another question.
The costs associated with the needs of treaty peoples for infrastructure and water are not settled. How can you give over control of a scenario where figures are not fully confirmed or understood?
12:45 p.m.
Director General, Community Infrastructure, Department of Indigenous Services
That's an excellent question. I appreciate it.
As I mentioned, understanding the infrastructure gap begins with a conversation. We had that conversation last summer, and 72% of first nations participated in the exercise. In no way is that exercise complete.
In essence, it follows the spirit or tenet of Indigenous Services Canada, which is to continually work with first nations partners, based on their self-prioritized needs. Our first foray into understanding the quantum and delta of what infrastructure is required in first nations has to begin with that conversation. In no way does it end with that conversation. I think we're committed to working with first nations based on the resources available to the department, in order to build the best infrastructure at the best place and in the best time.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné
Thank you.
Mr. Desjarlais, your time is up.
Ms. Shanahan now has five minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to give Ms. Wilson some time to explain the new methodology. I was prepared to share my time with Mr. Desjarlais as well, but he isn't here. We'll continue.
Ms. Wilson, the floor is yours.
12:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Thank you.
Jonathan, can you speak about that?
12:50 p.m.
Jonathan Allen Senior Director, Department of Indigenous Services
Thank you.
In our graduation rate methodology, the fundamental change from the one used in previous departmental reports is this: We now follow a cohort of students who enter grade 10 in a given year and provide two sets of data. One is for students who graduate on time—that is, within three years of entering grade 10. We also now, for the first time in the departmental report just published, give an extended time: within five years of entering grade 10. Statistically, 44% of students in that cohort graduated with a year or two of additional studies.
That's very critical, because it reflects what first nations partners have told us about the way first nations students learn. Some need to care for young families, some need to work and some have health, family or community issues. Those two extra years were suppressed. They had not been indicated in any previous ISC reporting, because our previous methodology—which was rightly criticized by partners and the OAG—only measured students who entered and left grade 12, and it was not representative of the full story. That's what we listened to, and that's what we changed and co-developed with partners. This grad rate applies to all first nations. That's what is reported.
We also have regional education agreements that are fundamentally driven by what first nations partners define as their outcomes, needs, goals and objectives. Through a performance measurement framework, they also define the activities they know will close the gaps, and the costing for those activities. That's what a regional education agreement is. The example referred to today, the First Nations Education Council in Quebec, is the most recent public example of this at that scale, with 22 first nations in Quebec. They're working to develop their own first nations-defined metrics, indicators and results, in order to talk about graduation rate in their way. That can complement and inform what the department reports on, as an aggregate.
Also referred to today is not having “one size fits all”. We had to be delicate and listen to first nations expressing concerns about having a set target to work towards. The improvement year over year is based on the new baseline of 26% on-time graduation and 44% extended-time graduation in that same cohort. That's what we'll see going forward. It mirrors the pan-Canadian graduation rate, which is published by Statistics Canada. It also mirrors more closely what provinces do. It will give on-reserve and off-reserve context for comparison or contrasting, based on what our partners see as their vision.
In summary, there's a new methodology: on-time graduation within three years of entering grade 10, which is 26%—newly published this year for students in this cohort—and an extended-time graduation, which shows a 44% graduation rate.
Thank you.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you very much for that thorough answer. I think it helps us. Even though education is normally not the purview of the federal government, it is in this instance, of course, with Indigenous Affairs.
I've had the experience of working, from time to time, with the Kahnawake Survival School in the riding next door to me. It's very impressive. I have seen the results: what the students have gone on to do and how they contribute in a very meaningful way to our community as a whole. Actually, I'd like to see that.... You know, we say we can always learn lessons from the way different communities do things. I think this is something we could also learn in our more conventional, provincial school systems.
I'll go back to water filtration and water advisories. Water filtration is only a small part of providing clean water. Perhaps, Deputy Wilson, you can talk to us about water protection. What kind of work is Indigenous Services doing to support communities with waste-water and source-water needs?
12:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
We would be happy to talk to you about that, for sure.
Go ahead, Curtis.
12:50 p.m.
Curtis Bergeron Director, Strategic Water Management Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
I can be very quick.
It starts with the source water. Then—you're right—it goes through the water treatment plant. The types of services provided in that plant vary greatly by different types of treatment. Depending on the quality of water, it goes through different areas within that plant, and then into a distribution system—which also has to be adequate—and into homes. The water coming out of those taps needs to be clean and safe for drinking.
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné
Thank you.
Before starting our last round of questions, I want to let you know that each party has one minute of speaking time left. We'll have plenty of time to vote. If everyone agrees, there will be one minute of speaking time.
Mr. Vidal, you have the floor for one minute.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you, Chair. I'll be very quick.
Mr. Allen, I appreciated your thorough explanation of the switch to the cohort method and what predicated that. It's all very clear information that's in your departmental results reports.
I'm going to come back to a question I asked the minister. Maybe you can answer it for me. I totally understand the history. I understand how we got here. I may be a little bit frustrated with how long it took, but that's fair.
The 2021 and the 2022 departmental results reports talk about the baseline data being developed for this new methodology. In the 2023 report, all we see is the target going forward. Do you have the numbers on where that was historically? The results reports seem to indicate that you were measuring that data for the last couple of years. I'd just like to know where we were in the prior years relative to where we set the target, if that makes sense.
12:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Department of Indigenous Services
Essentially, it took three years to develop the new methodology to produce the new baseline of that 26% and 44% for that cohort we have. We need to have two years to compare and then a year to gather the data, which is why we had to continue to report, in previous years, up to this year, using the old methodology, even though we were developing the new methodology.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
12:55 p.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné
No. I'm sorry. It's Ms. Yip's turn.
Ms. Yip, you have one minute.
