Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Christiane Fox]

I think the answer to that is a whole-of-government effort. It takes the federal government. The provincial nominee program, the PNP, can be leveraged. We raised that with our provincial and territorial counterparts in terms of how we can work together to use PNP space and to use federal space to actually welcome people to Canada.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I've been to enough church basements, including over Thanksgiving, to know now that many of these CUAET visa holders don't have enough points for express entry. Many of them have been given bad information by IRCC, by lawyers or by immigration consultants, and they're struggling. They don't have their certifications. Their licences aren't recognized in Canada. Many of them are struggling to get survival jobs. The cost of living is immense. I met a mother with her 18-year-old son here. They are earning $2,800 a month and paying $2,4000 a month in rent. They're just making it, but the son can't go to school. He has to work as well just so that they can get by.

We have a program for those who have connections, who have family members here. For the rest of them, is the government going to look for more information and reach out to different Ukrainian organizations? This is a group of people who have fled, sometimes with absolutely nothing. They left their homes. Many of their homes have been destroyed by the Russian army. They have no village, nowhere to go back to, and unlike those in Europe who have expressed an interest in going back, the ones in Canada have said they would like to stay. What does the path to permanent residency look like for them in the department? Don't say there's a “whole-of-government approach”, because every time that's said, I cringe—

[Christiane Fox]

How about “whole-of-Canada”?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

—because nothing happens. It means people will say, “it's not my job” or they'll do it halfway or they'll just ignore them or they'll point fingers at somebody else.

I'm asking what IRCC, what this department, is going to do.

[Christiane Fox]

What I can tell you today is that we are looking at those who are here, those who want to stay here, and it is important to note that we have to work with our provinces and territories, because they have PNP space as part of the levels plan—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Are you going to increase their PNP space?

[Christiane Fox]

These are conversations we're going to have with provincial and territorial governments, because I think they have raised with us and we have raised with them the importance of providing some clarity to those who have come here temporarily with respect to what they can expect on the path forward.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Deputy Minister, if the Alberta provincial government reached out to you and said they needed more provincial nominee spots specifically for Ukraine CUAET visa holders, do you believe that your department, your minister, would be willing to say yes? If there were a ministerial meeting of all FPT ministers, would that be something the ministry would say yes to?

[Christiane Fox]

I think I will leave that to the minister to make final decisions on—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'll ask him later today, so—

[Christiane Fox]

—but I think it is important that provincial governments that have integrated Ukrainians into their communities also think about provincial programs to accept them in. I think it can be a joint effort and I think we're absolutely willing to have that conversation with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kmiec.

I understand that for our last round, there will be two sharers, Ms. Shanahan and Mr. Blois. Do you want me to be the arbitrator of the time or would you like to hand that off to your colleagues?

I see. Okay. We trust you to be fair and impartial, like your chair.

Thank you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fox, you said we had already exceeded our target of 4% francophone immigration outside Quebec.

When I began my career as an MP in 2015‑2016, I remember how depressing it was on the Standing Committee on Official Languages to see that we really hadn't achieved it. So this is good news.

Would you please tell us about the agreements reached with the other provinces? Is this really a demand coming from the provinces?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, we've reached the francophone immigration target a year earlier than anticipated. Last year, we hit 4.4%. The target had been set for 2023, but we achieved it in 2022. So this is good news. We hope that growth will continue this year. It's important.

In the context of the action plan for official languages 2023‑2028, we have worked very closely with Canadian Heritage to determine how Canada can increase francophone immigration. It's important to raise the target: 6% is a big increase. That means we need to promote and recruit in a more targeted manner in order to attract people wishing to come to Canada.

We also have to work more closely with the provinces and territories. What we're trying to do with them is include an annex in the bilateral agreement of every province and territory clearly indicating their immigration target. If we can work together to conduct a promotion and recruitment campaign that doesn't target the same people, which would genuinely help increase the pool of individuals, that will be the key to success. We have to expand the pool in order to meet the 6% target.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's excellent. It's very good news.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Blois.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Ms. Shanahan.

Ms. Fox, when I play golf, I not only try to beat my own score and what I'm capable of, but I also try to beat my buddies, the people I'm playing with, who have comparable skills.

Ms. Khalid asked a question, and I think you did a good job talking about the principles behind our immigration. I know sometimes it would be comparing apples to oranges, but compared to countries that have similar types of processes, how's our processing time? That's what I'm more interested in. Be as succinct as you can, because I have another one or two questions.

[Christiane Fox]

Very quickly, when I went over to the U.S., I was surprised to see just how paper-based their system continues to be. To give you another example, Australia did a review of their immigration system, and they mentioned Canada 42 times, so I think it is key in terms of looking at systems that work. I would finally say that other countries have mimicked our express entry point system in order to try to get similar results in terms of talent attraction.

Those would be some of the comments I would make. Around processing times, we're constantly looking at it, to remain internationally competitive. Those are a few points that I would raise to answer the question.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Ms. Hogan referenced this a bit in her opening comments about setting realistic timelines. Of course, I want to be lower when I'm on the golf course; you want to have lower processing times in terms of being expeditious.

Are service timelines realistic, and how are they developed? On what metrics are those developed, and is it time for us to perhaps be more realistic with some folks about the challenges we're facing?

[Christiane Fox]

I think it's important for us, and this is a good time to reflect on where we are with service standards. I think the immigration strategy document we released indicated that step one was to get back to service standard, and step two is actually to re-evaluate those service standards.

I think now we have to look at it in the context of where we are with modernization. There are things that are faster than they used to be, and maybe that warrants a change. There's also a rise in volume, so it's how we can actually look at volume and impacts in terms of productivity.

The third thing I would say, particularly on the international student program, is that the department is looking at setting up a recognized institution, similar in concept to the recognized employer. That would be what an institution would need to demonstrate in order to have access to the program and bring integrity and speed to the level of processing. There's more to come, but that's a bit of—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I have about a minute left.

Mr. Kmiec talked about Alberta. I used to ask Mr. Brison, before I was in politics, about how Nova Scotia's PNP was different from Manitoba's. I note that we have the Atlantic immigration program now, which has been, I think, a relatively resounding success.

One number stuck out to me in the OAG report. It was that 3% of applications were approved within the service standard for the federal skilled worker program. I don't think anyone has asked that specific question.

What particularly may have caused that particular delay?

[Marie-Josée Dorion]

That's basically the fact that most of those applicants were sitting.... Don't forget that this report was at the end of 2022, not this year. They applied just before the pandemic, and then they sat in the inventory because we couldn't process people who couldn't come here. We stopped the intake, which is good, but if you look at that, you see that those people are now processed within five months. We've adjusted the intake and processed the old cases, and we're back to normal.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay. It was a calculated decision because people were not able to come, given the health constraints at the time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time.

If you could just bear with me before I excuse everyone and adjourn the meeting, I just have a couple of questions, as the chair's prerogative, to help the analysts with the report.

The first is for the Auditor General. This is really to recommendation 9.64.

Has IRCC adhered to all the requirements under the directive on automated decision making? If not, could you give us some examples from this? You're welcome to respond now, if you like, which I think is the preference.

Please go ahead.

[Carol McCalla]

Yes, we found that IRCC did comply with the requirements, particularly in its quality management of the automated decision-making tool. Our concern was that in using the tool, it wanted—and getting into advanced analytics—all applicants to be able to benefit. However, we found that only those who met the criteria to be processed by the tool at that one decision-making point benefited from faster processing times. The shift in reallocating resources to other applicants had not yet taken place.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

The next question is for Ms. Fox or either of you, and it has to do with recommendation 9.36. IRCC's anti-racism strategy calls for results for tracking purposes by April 2024. What is the timeline for implementation after the pilot?

If you have an answer now, that would suffice, but if you would prefer, you're welcome to come back to us as well.