Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Karen Hogan]

No. No one interferes with our audits and our recommendations. Obviously, we have a conversation with the department and officials around what makes sense in the context and what can be implemented. At times, when they disagree with us, it's because we held firm that we didn't see the outcome we wanted to achieve coming through a different path.

I think we have made recommendations here that they need to better analyze their backlog along many lines, including race, country of citizenship, ethnicity and age. All of that analysis needs to be better done to understand why, and some of it has to do with the office an application is sent to for processing.

That basic element of understanding the capacity in the offices and redirecting applications would have an impact on this. We encouraged the department to do that with our recommendations.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Ms. Fox, on the same point, Minister Fraser introduced an $82-million bump-up to the budget specifically to process new applications. Is that not politically stating, “We want you to ignore old applications and work on new ones”?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for the question.

No. I think the way we've tried to manage it is.... There's a flow of work that needs to be managed, whether it's complex cases, new cases or aged inventory. What we try to do is parse the work out among the teams we have. We have had funding to increase our processing capacity quite significantly, so it's almost like there are task teams that are dedicated to the routine cases, the less complex cases, and for the ones that are more complex, which are usually the aged inventory, a separate team is dedicated to that.

I think the global processing allows us to spread that work around.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Wouldn't you agree that for the minister to say that he wants to give you this money to focus on these simpler, easier cases and not focus so much on the complicated, older cases...?

Is it not political direction to focus on recent cases?

[Christiane Fox]

I think we got direction to treat all the cases we receive as quickly as possible. We were resourced to deal with the new and incoming ones and try to get back to service standard for those applying into the system today, and also to deal with the backlog.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

How has that worked out?

We still see these kinds of numbers with massive wait times. We deal with this in our office all the time. People have been waiting for literally years, and they have friends who come in sooner and get their applications processed sooner. I believe the minister has directed it this way and the auditor has found this, too.

I was disappointed that there was no recommendation to deal with the fact that the average age of these cases is so old. To me, as an MP, with the things I see every day in my office—and I'm sure all of us see this—this is a critical issue. This can't go on. These old cases have to be dealt with. If they're not, it puts pain and pressure on real people.

These aren't files. These aren't things sitting on a desk. These are actually people, and—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Fox, do you have a brief response to that? I do have to cut you off, Mr. Redekopp.

You might not. That was more of a statement, I think, than a question.

Pardon me, Ms. Hogan.

[Karen Hogan]

If I could add, Mr. Chair, I would send the member to recommendation 9.43, which actually recommends to the department to prioritize some of the older backlogged files.

While we didn't use the “first in” principle, we recommended that they understand it and prioritize those older files. That recommendation is there.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I apologize about that.

I'll turn now to Ms. Yip. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, I was glad to hear that, because when I look at my constituency staff dealing with the backlogs and so forth, I see that it's a lot. Explaining to the constituents is distressing to them too, and it takes its toll on our staff as well.

This question is directed to Ms. Fox.

We've talked a lot about the anti-racism strategy. I haven't quite heard what actual steps are being taken to address these systemic barriers to applicants under the anti-racism strategy.

What are we doing now? What are some of the concrete plans? I know that the action plan goes far into the future, but what are we doing about it now?

[Christiane Fox]

Just to be clear to the committee members, I have said previously—and I have said this within and outside of my organization—that we acknowledge that there is systemic racism within the department. Yes, I joined a long time ago when those conversations were not taking place, but as a leader in an organization, I think it is absolutely essential that we ensure that those conversations take place and that we tackle them head-on.

In terms of some of the concrete things we're doing now, it's very important to look at IRCC's footprint around the world and the choices about where we allocate resources. I think there is a huge benefit to global processing. In the current context of the situation in India, our services were less impacted because we were able to move work. I think 89% of the caseload coming from India was managed outside of New Delhi, so that gave us that flexibility.

I think having a footprint on the ground in certain places needs to be improved. I think sub-Saharan Africa is absolutely one of those examples. We used to have between 35 and 40 staff. As of December 2023, for Canada-based staff in certain countries in sub-Saharan Africa, we are at 54 people. We've engaged 22 locally engaged decision-makers. They are part of our decision-making process. That means an increase of about 20 Canadian-based staff on the ground. We are looking to increase that even more.

I think that is a way to have a bit more migration diplomacy, intelligence on the ground and sensitivity to issues that would not necessarily be akin to the issues that someone in another location may face. I think that is one example of how we're trying to address the situation and make change.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

That's good to hear about sub-Saharan Africa, but what about other places and resources? How is the department juggling to make sure the resources are fair?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

—to make sure the resources are fair across the board?

[Christiane Fox]

I know there are always choices that we need to make around what work we do in domestic processing and what our footprint is internationally. I think we have—and we could absolutely provide to the committee—our footprint around the world and what that looks like. It's got to be cognizant of some of our objectives around francophone immigration, for example.

Our targets for the next few years are quite high: 6%, 7% and 8%. Our international presence will definitely have a direct impact on our ability to meet them. We'd be happy to expand our presence elsewhere, but we're working on strategies for Africa and the Indo-Pacific region so we can ensure the government's objectives are reflected in IRCC's activities around the world.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm sorry. There's a lag in the translation and I just wanted to make sure I heard everything. Thank you.

I was looking at this graph on refugee, economic and family class in the report. Why does it take longer to process the economic class than the family class, especially if there are certain skill sets that are really needed?

[Marie-Josée Dorion]

I think I would answer this one by saying that when you look at the graph and all the data in the report, that's from 2022. We were just at the end of the pandemic. We accumulated large backlogs of applications during the pandemic, and we couldn't process certain categories of clients coming more frequently from overseas during COVID-19. The borders were closed.

If you look at the stats that you have in the report—for example, the federal highly skilled or the federal trades—we were at 30 to 32 months of processing in December 2022 because we couldn't process those people during COVID, but we do have intake control. We made sure that we controlled the intake. When we look at that today, we're at five months of processing time. The report shows the impact of what COVID did to us by accumulating inventory that we couldn't process, basically.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time.

I'm going now to Mr. McCauley. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, AG Hogan and Ms. Fox. Welcome, Ms. Dorion.

I have a couple of quick questions, probably for Ms. Fox.

The Service Fees Act requires remissions and rebates to people when we haven't met the service standards. That was suspended over COVID-19, I understand. Has that been re-established? If so, when? If not, why not?

[Christiane Fox]

I think that for the passport service fee act—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm not referring to passports. I mean for immigration.

[Christiane Fox]

I'd have to check which of our service fees have a reimbursement attached to them. I can get that information to the committee, but I don't have it here.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Have we restarted the remission program, or is it still suspended?

[Christiane Fox]

I'll have to come back. I don't have the answer on it.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How do you not know? This is a major requirement for your department.

I'm sorry; I'm not trying to be rude, but this is a major thing that was suspended during COVID. COVID has been over for a year. How do you not know, as deputy minister, whether we've re-established it?

[Christiane Fox]

I think what I'm saying is that we've re-established the remission order, but I don't have the breakdown of how many programs it applies to.