Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 14th, 2023

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

For all the ministers you mentioned, including the lead minister, can you please forward to this committee information on the dates of the meetings you had with those ministers and when those briefings were? Could we have that information as well by January 19, 2024?

[Paul Thompson]

I'm not in a position to identify which dates. I have regular conversations with ministers on a weekly basis. I don't know if I'm in a position to declare which dates.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Could you go back in your calendar to see when you have had these conversations or these meetings with the various ministers, specifically discussing this benefits modernization program? Could we have that tabled by January 19 from whoever is responsible?

[Paul Thompson]

We will certainly look to see what briefings have taken place, particularly with respect to the lead minister, with whom there have been a large number of briefings.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Right—there's the lead minister and actually all the ministers you mentioned, because each one of them, as you mentioned, does have different levels of responsibility.

[Paul Thompson]

I would note that there are other ministers who are a key part of this as well, who are involved in an oversight committee. The Minister of Public Services and Procurement and—

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's wonderful, so could you send to the committee whatever ministers were involved and whenever those briefings were and whenever those meetings were?

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We turn now to Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you to all of you for coming here this morning.

My first question is for Mr. Hayes. In the opening statement you mentioned that 38% of the government's approximately 7,500 information technology applications were considered healthy.

What does it mean to have a system that's considered healthy?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that it might be easier for me to describe how we define what is not healthy.

Old infrastructure, systems that have limited vendor support, systems that have limited capacity to integrate with others, and systems that are subject to security vulnerabilities would be considered to be in poor health.

If the systems don't have those features, they would be considered to be healthy.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What do you consider the biggest challenge?

[Andrew Hayes]

At this point our audit report raised a few issues that I would signal.

First is the quality and completeness of information on the state and health of all the systems. As we noted, there is a gap in the information that the Treasury Board Secretariat is getting on the health of these systems.

I would also say that having a strategy in place to be able to plan which priority systems need to be upgraded or replaced would also be an important factor. As we have audited this, in a number of cases in the past, we identified that strategies didn't exist. We're now more than 13 years after one of our other audits, in which we said that a strategy would be important.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Why do you think it's not progressing as quickly?

[Andrew Hayes]

I think that would be a good question for the departments.

I think part of the challenge, as we have signalled in the report, relates to the availability of skilled staff and recruiting and retaining skilled staff.

Again, the information upon which to make priority decisions is also a reason this could be progressing slowly.

Also, as the deputy minister mentioned, Shared Services is responsible for infrastructure, whereas the departments themselves are responsible for modernizing their applications. They sometimes have to make difficult decisions with their financing, because if they have to pay for modernization, that might have to come out of the funds they would otherwise use for services or programs for Canadians.

Those are all challenges that could be contributing to the delays.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'll ask Treasury Board and Shared Services Canada the same question.

What are the biggest challenges, and why is it not progressing as quickly?

[Catherine Luelo]

Scott, would you like to go first?

[Scott Jones]

I can start.

There are a few areas in which I would say that SSC has changed its strategy to try to make it easier for departments. First of all, we have pre-positioned some infrastructure before what we call “workload migration”, which is really about moving applications to modern data centres.

We did it on demand, and then it would take 18 months to build the infrastructure. We're working to pre-position infrastructure through our hosting services.

The second piece that is a challenge, I would say, is just how old some of these applications have become, so it becomes not just an upgrade but generational leaps of technology, so it's a very difficult skill set to build up.

Also, we need to look at how we build applications, in general, and how they get sustained funding.

I ran a number of applications in previous roles when I was with the cyber centre. We made sure we invested continually in upgrading those applications to keep them fresh.

Perhaps I'll turn it over to Catherine, from OCIO.

[Catherine Luelo]

I might contrast it with some of the differences I've noted from doing this in a number of private sector organizations. A fundamental lack of prioritization is getting in the way of progress. The numbers are staggering when you think about 38% healthy. The unhealthy number is high, and we can't tackle those at once. In prioritization, there are winners and losers, and we don't seem to have a comfort with stopping programs, or delaying them, to allow us to do the work that needs to happen on the higher-risk programs.

The other piece I would point to is that we are challenged with standardization. That's not a phenomenon unique to government, but it is, I think, amplified in government. It is much easier to keep on a modern path if you have standard protocols for doing things, yet everything is special around government in areas where frankly it shouldn't be—pay and HR being one of them.

Finally I would note that the CIO of Canada has accountability but very few levers that would be consistent with what I would have been used to in the private sector. Certainly, I am in the planning, but there is no central control around funding, dispensing of funds and prioritization that is consistent with what I've experienced outside government.

Thank you.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

While on the topic of funding, the 2016-20 Government of Canada information technology strategic plan stated that “Chronic under investment” to replace aging information technology systems had put “the government's ability to deliver...essential services to Canadians at risk”.

Do you feel that a lack of sustainable funding prior to 2016 resulted in unnecessary and additional costs due to not having sufficient funding to meet SSC's needs and responsibilities?

That would be for you—

[Scott Jones]

It—

[Catherine Luelo]

I'm sorry. Is that a question for me or for Scott?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Well, since Mr. Jones has already started, we'll have him continue.

[Scott Jones]

Thanks for that question, because it actually does go to some of it. For a number of years, SSC's funding was even insufficient to pay for the ongoing licensing and maintenance. In the last number of years, though, we have invested in what we call the “IT refresh and replacement program”.

That renewed a tremendous amount of our infrastructure, so even if the application is old, the hardware underneath it and the supporting infrastructure network has been refreshed to modern standards, as modern as we can get with what the applications demand. We have been able to do that, but for the first six years or so, I would say, of Shared Services' attempts to consolidate, underfunding was a significant limitation for modernization, investment and building a new base infrastructure.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is your time, Ms. Yip. We can come back to others if there are comments.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to recall a saying that often guides my work and I hope also guides yours. The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members. The most vulnerable people in Canadian and Quebec society are people who are receiving old age security or people who are unemployed and receiving employment insurance benefits.

What we learn in the Auditor General's report is that the computer systems that support those payments, which are essential every month for the most vulnerable members of our society, are on the brink of collapsing. This is very disturbing. It is why we are happy to have you here today and get a little more explanation.

You have started to tell us about the problems. Now that you have got a picture of it, now that you pretty much know what the problems are, what is being done to fix them quickly? That is what I am interested in today.

One of the important figures that was mentioned in your report, Mr. Hayes, deals with the percentage target that the government has set itself: 60% by 2030, I believe. At the present pace, if things continue as they are, the government will only reach 45% of the target, in terms of the modernizing it thought it could do.

Mr. Hayes, do you stand by that figure?