Public Accounts Committee on Jan. 25th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone.

Happy new year. It's nice to see you all back, either virtually or in our nation's capital.

Welcome to meeting number 93 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses as well as members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

Whether you are in the room or attending using Zoom, when you are not speaking, your microphone must be turned off or muted.

Although the room is equipped with a reliable audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and can cause serious injuries. In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of the interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone into which their headset is plugged and avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table, away from the microphone, when they are not in use. I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Before we dig into the matter at hand, I want to introduce to you and welcome our new clerk, Hilary Smyth. We had a meeting yesterday just to get committee work under way and prepare for the winter session. I will give you a quick overview. Notices will be going out today and tomorrow with respect to committee work next week.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to continue its study of the ArriveCAN application.

I would now like to recognize and welcome our witness from the Office of the Auditor General, Mr. Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general.

Mr. Hayes, you have some brief opening remarks. We all look forward to hearing from you.

Do you have a point of order, Ms. Khalid?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

No. I was just wondering; Mr. Johns' hand is up online.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Mr. Johns, do you have a point of order?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Yes, I do, Mr. Chair.

I see that this meeting has been called and deemed as an emergency meeting. My understanding is that it is not only your committee that is studying ArriveCAN; three other committees, including the government operations committee, are also studying ArriveCAN. We had two emergency meetings last week. Today an emergency meeting has been called at the same time as three political parties are having their strategic caucus sessions.

This committee has asked for the Auditor General to appear to discuss the report on ArriveCAN. This is ahead of the scheduled report being tabled to Parliament—in mid-February, to my understanding. For a couple of reasons, I don't think this is the right way to go. It's interrupting an investigation by the Auditor General that's taking place right now, something that actually the NDP called for. I put forward a motion at our committee that the Auditor General study not just ArriveCAN but all government purchasing policies and practices, seeing if they're being adhered to in terms of the Treasury Board policies that we have to adhere to in Parliament and that government needs to apply. This calling on the deputy auditor general ahead of what will be a tabled report is interference, I believe, in a study that's being applied and an investigation that's happening right now.

As well, I believe an emergency meeting needs to be called when it's an emergency. We all want to get to the bottom of the ArriveCAN scandal, but to have four committees study it and to demand emergency meetings repeatedly.... I want to talk about what an emergency looks like. Right now I'm in Edmonton, where there are homeless people all over the streets. I tabled a motion at the government operations committee to look at government lands and how we would use those lands to ensure that we have adequate housing for people. We know that the Conservatives have talked about using 15% of government buildings and lands to build housing for Canadians. We know that the government has talked about using government lands as well, but my study was particularly narrowly focused on ensuring that government lands are used for public purposes, for affordable housing, and on ensuring that government lands belong in public hands.

That's an emergency. That's a reason to have four committees studying an issue—when we have homeless people and it's skyrocketing out of control.

Mr. Chair, I just want to make sure that when we call an emergency meeting, it's done in a way that reflects an emergency. We've brought in all this staff from the House of Commons right now to do this meeting ahead of what the Auditor General will already be tabling. I think this is interference in a study that's taking place, and I don't believe this meeting should be taking place for that reason. Secondly, I don't believe this truly justifies an emergency meeting of Parliament.

I wanted to put that on record.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

Your point of order is that you object to the meeting being called, which is not technically a point of order, but I wanted to give you time to speak.

I will address your first point. In fact, this committee previously invited the Office of the Auditor General to appear on this exact subject while that investigation was under way. It was viewed as a routine meeting that, again, was during a recess week, so there is certainly a precedent.

In terms of interference, we have a witness here today from the Office of the Auditor General, who is prepared to speak, so I don't quite follow the logic of this being interference.

I'll note that the previous meeting, which we had on October 12, not only resulted in information being shared publicly, which was noteworthy; it also resulted in the Auditor General then taking steps to ensure that the committee's concerns were addressed in the current report.

I've heard your point of order. Again, I listened to more to allow you to get it on the record, but the meeting is going to proceed.

We're not in debate. If you have a point of order, say, “Point of order”. Otherwise, I want to hear from Mr. Hayes.

Are there any other points of order?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have a point of clarification, then, Mr. Chair.

This meeting could have been called earlier in the week. I find it suspicious that the Conservatives decided to have a meeting on a Friday, when three other political parties are in the middle of their strategic planning sessions.

With respect—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Johns, it's Thursday.

There are all kinds of overlapping caucus meetings. The letter I received, which was sent to the OAG by Mr. McCauley, was at the end of last week, so I worked through that as quickly as I could.

Anyway, your objection is noted.

Hearing no other points of order, Mr. Hayes, you have the floor for up to five minutes.

[Andrew Hayes, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee as part of its study on ArriveCAN.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

As members of the committee are aware, the report will be tabled on February 12.

This audit looks at whether the Canada Border Services Agency, the Public Health Agency of Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada managed all aspects of ArriveCAN, including procurement and expected deliverables, with due regard for economy, efficiency and effectiveness.

I am happy to answer the committee’s questions when possible. However, as you know, since this report has not yet been tabled in Parliament, I am not in a position to discuss our findings. We look forward to appearing again before the committee when the report is tabled.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

We have a point of order from Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

It was mentioned that the report will be tabled on February 12. I'm not a regular member of this committee. I wonder if you could just provide us, and anyone listening, with an update on what's going to happen on February 12 in terms of the tabling of the report and opportunities for members to see the report...the embargoed version.

I have been involved in the ArriveCAN discussions at other committees, and I think there is a great deal of anticipation for that February 12 report.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure. I'll address that now. You're pre-empting my conclusion.

In mid-January, the Office of the Auditor General sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Commons indicating that the Auditor General would be tabling the ArriveCAN audit on Monday, February 12. This then triggers a series of activities, both for this committee as well as for the OAG.

That's a Monday. The House opens at 11. Our committee does not normally meet on Monday, but we will be that day. As to how the day is going to unroll, members will receive a notice of this before the weekend. All parliamentarians are going to receive this information, actually, because the lock-up is open to all parliamentarians.

From 8 a.m. to 10 a.m., the Office of the Auditor General will be hosting a lock-up on Parliament Hill for members to come to. There will be staff members there from the OAG, who will be in a position to answer questions surrounding the audit during those two hours. That is open to all parliamentarians, as well as staff. Documents are also available electronically under certain embargoed conditions.

Next—and this is customary—at approximately 10 o'clock, the Auditor General, Karen Hogan, will come to a committee room and take questions from parliamentarians. This is not an official committee setting. This is something that I, as chair of public accounts, am asked to host. There is no speaking order: It is questions for the auditor from parliamentarians. Ms. Hogan will endeavour to respond to their questions with respect to what is contained in the audit.

Following that, our committee will meet at approximately 11:15 in the morning. Ms. Hogan will begin with opening comments on her audit, and then there'll be a meeting for approximately one hour. After that, Ms. Hogan has to leave, and she will then address the national press gallery with her report on ArriveCAN.

That is how the day is going to unfold on February 12. To give all of you an advance preview, I'm making arrangements now for the regular meeting on February 13, working in conjunction with the OAG, to bring the deputy auditor back, along with the three departments that are being investigated in this audit. There's where we are.

Pardon me. The invitation to all parliamentarians was sent yesterday, so it is probably at your main account, and committee members might have it on their P9s.

I see hands up, but if you have a point of order, I would prefer if you say so.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the government operations committee has spent tens of millions of dollars in reproduction of documents—documents that it would take four people working full time a year to go over. That is costing.... Actually, the McKinsey study, the witch hunt, found nothing. It found nothing except for—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Johns, please identify your point of order. You will have a speaking round.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The point of order is this: There was an opportunity to send out a memo instead of doing this whole meeting. This whole charade has cost a pile of money. It's unnecessary. The witness can't speak—we all knew this going into this meeting—because they have a report coming out.

I'm trying to figure out what game is going on here and why we're sitting here. I need an explanation, and I'm hoping that you, Mr. Chair, can explain why you've called this meeting, knowing full well that the witness can't speak and there's a report forthcoming. Maybe you can explain to this committee why we're here.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Johns, the witness is here to answer questions to the best of his ability, and I'd like to hear from him.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

He can't—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right, Mr. Johns. Thank you.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, do you want to raise a point of order?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I only want to ask a quick question about what you just announced for the February 12 schedule.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

What is your question?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Will the 11:15 meeting with the Auditor General be in public?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That’s perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm putting notice to this committee that I'll be yielding my last 90 seconds to my colleague, Mr. Genuis.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Do you want me to interrupt you for that?