Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It was quite widespread, though.

[Karen Hogan]

I think there are many individuals who play a critical role when it comes to making sure procurement and projects are well documented.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is it the same issue with the inaccurate financial records that you commented on? Is it the same issue throughout the department? Is it not just one position, but throughout this project or throughout the department?

[Karen Hogan]

Again, I think it starts with the person who might accept an invoice with insufficient information and then certify and sign off that the government received what it should have received. Whoever does the coding and then whoever does the entry into the financial system....

Again, I think you have the luxury of having the president of CBSA here. Some of these questions are well directed at her, as to who would have been accountable and how many individuals would be involved in a process to treat an invoice.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

President O'Gorman, maybe you can answer that in writing, because we're short of time. Maybe you can get back to the committee on that, because I want to move on to another question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Could you just be clear on what the question is?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The question is, who or what positions were responsible for or should have been collecting and ensuring all the paper was there? Also, as the AG commented, who was responsible for the inaccurate financial records? I assume it's not just one person.

Maybe you can get back to the committee with which departments and which projects, etc.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Is it possible for you to do that in writing after the meeting?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I can answer it or come back in writing.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Provide it in writing, please, because we're short of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I want to follow up.

The two gentlemen, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, both received performance bonuses last year and the years before that, did they not?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't know.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

They did. I am telling you. I am surprised that you would not know, considering the gravity of the situation. I am stunned that's not part of the....

How did they receive bonuses if they are the subject of these accusations?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I wasn't aware of who received bonuses.

To your question, they would have been assessed at the end of the fiscal year and to the extent that there is information—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

One moment they're assessed well enough to receive a bonus, and the next moment they're history's greatest monsters in CBSA, according to some of these documents. It just seems quite strange.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I can answer that question, Mr. Chair, if—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Erin O'Gorman]

There are mechanisms, if information comes to light after performance ratings are done, to be able to reconsider those ratings.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The operations and estimates committee first started this ArriveCAN investigation in October 2022. Why did it take all the way up to the Botler allegations for CBSA to actually act and start looking more seriously at this rather lackadaisical effort?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There are two things.

First, when the study was started and we were bringing information together to respond to the committee, it was clear to me that the documentation was incomplete and inadequate. The study was started in October, and the Botler allegations came in November—the following month.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I want to read to you a text. This is from Mr. Doan and it is before his appearance: “My issue is what I want to say and what I can't say. Can I throw PHAC under the bus, throw ministers under the bus?”

What do you think Mr. Doan was referencing when he said that he could not speak to these for fear of throwing PHAC or ministers under the bus?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I have no idea.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Have you looked into it?

[Erin O'Gorman]

This is the first I've heard of that text.