Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, to be specific about committees, I believe that testimony was made in OGGO.

You have about 10 seconds for a brief question, and then we will hear an answer from Ms. O'Gorman.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The report identifies that there were 10,000 Canadians falsely, inappropriately sent into quarantine by one out of the 177 versions of the app. What is the total number of people who were sent into quarantine by this app who shouldn't have been?

[Darryl Vleeming]

Ten thousand two hundred were given a false notification that they should have been quarantined when they didn't actually need to be quarantined.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next, we have Mr. Chen.

I have a note here that you're splitting your time. Is that right?

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Do you want me to notify you at three minutes, or will you do the tee-off?

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

I'll do the tee-off.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Perfect, I just wanted to make sure. Thank you.

It's over to you for five minutes.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. O'Gorman rightfully stated today that CBSA personnel work very hard on the front lines. We know them when we cross the borders. We know that they do everything they can to keep Canadians safe and protect this country.

Today, we are talking about an issue that is tarnishing each and every one of those workers, that is tarnishing the department, that is disappointing Canadians, because seeing this report from the Auditor General, I personally am utterly disappointed. It is mind-blowing what has happened here. At a time especially when Canadians are grappling with the high cost of living and we are facing unprecedented inflation, the AG has found “Glaring disregard for basic management and contracting practices” with respect to ArriveCAN, this $59.5-million project. Even the AG has indicated she is unclear about whether that is the true and accurate number.

Ms. O'Gorman, things have been said today about your role. You have indicated that you were not your predecessor. What would you like to say to this committee and to the Canadians who are watching in terms of what next steps you're going to take to make sure that there is accountability, that this will be properly investigated, and that we will have answers to the questions that have been put forward today? What do you plan to do next?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Thank you.

I share your disappointment. I share your disappointment because from my previous position I saw the people of CBSA working very hard to try to make the border work during the pandemic and allow commercial goods to come in, and managing the border in a way that avoided it being clogged up and having an impact on the economy.

That being said, as I said, I share your disappointment that there is such a lack of documentation. If that documentation extended six months after the beginning of the pandemic, I would feel much more comfortable being here to defend that and explain that. However, what didn't happen was a recognition that this was going to go on for more than six months, so we needed to stop, regroup, set a budget, and understand how we were going to keep going at this pace—and the pace was significant. The public health measures were changing on a fairly regular basis and that had to be coded in, that had to be released. Officers had to be trained. A lot of things had to happen. As we said, the lack of documentation is difficult to understand as it extends over that amount of time.

I have a management response plan that I have developed with the team in response to both the Auditor General's audit and the procurement ombud's. I have an audit under way. We have made some significant changes. The fact that we are approving contracts at a committee is probably a “belt and suspenders”. It shouldn't be that a committee is required to oversee decisions that are in people's proper authority. We're going to keep that in place until we have some comfort that the controls are in place, that people understand their roles and responsibilities.

As the Auditor General pointed out yesterday, a lot of the recommendations are variations of following the rules. I will agree with her that the department can do better than that.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you.

To the Auditor General, we have heard that there was a challenge in the department. They were facing an unprecedented situation. Canadians know that we had a COVID-19 emergency. In your performance audit, to what extent did you determine that the emergency that we faced as a country justified the shortcomings?

[Karen Hogan]

I said in my opening remarks, in my opening statement—and I still stand by them—that an emergency was not a reason to avoid the most basic processes that should have been there to demonstrate due diligence and accountability to Canadians.

I do recognize that it was a difficult time, but we have looked at other contracts and other procurements throughout the pandemic, and while there were definitely rules that were relaxed and all the hoops weren't jumped through, there was time taken to at least document key important decisions and be able to still be accountable to Canadians. That's all I would have expected to see here from the processes around ArriveCAN.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

We still need answers.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I'm afraid you've left 15 seconds for your partner.

You can ask a lightning question if you'd like.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I just wanted to say thank you to the Auditor General for her and her team's tremendous work that's shining a light on the serious breach of controls and breach of code of conduct.

Thank you very much for your tremendous work.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I turn now to Mr. Barrett.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Ms. O'Gorman, my questions are for you. The Auditor General has said that your department is responsible for ArriveCAN.

Canadians need to be able to have confidence in their public institutions. The work that CBSA does is incredibly important. Border service officers are the frontline defence for our country for so many different threats. The importance of their work can't be overstated.

The questions for the head of the CBSA are important so that we can have an understanding of whether our confidence as Canadians is well placed. We've seen, and you said, that much of what's happened was not under your leadership, but an evaluation of what's gone on and what's going on at the CBSA is important.

When did you find out the total amount of the contracted work that was given to GC Strategies by CBSA for ArriveCAN?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't have a date for that.

Last fall, as we were gathering information in response to various questions, and in response to my questions to understand, when it was clear that accountability had to be given for ArriveCAN.... I don't have a date when I received that information.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

This week, the Auditor General reported a number in excess of $19 million to GC Strategies.

When you've appeared at committee, the other number offered by parliamentarians in questions to you was about $11 million. CBSA never corrected parliamentarians or offered that this number was incorrect in verbal or written submissions.

Why is the number the Auditor General is offering this week, which is in excess of $19 million, not the number that CBSA officials, including yourself, gave to committee in their testimony at numerous appearances across numerous committees?

[Erin O'Gorman]

The information on the costs for ArriveCAN that included contracting costs was built with the information that we had at the time. They related to the health measures of the ArriveCAN app and, more broadly, supporting material, funding to SSC and so on. The Auditor General has looked at the app, including after the health measures were removed from the app and when it was used for the advance declaration function. Our scope and our timelines are different. I provided the best information that I had at the time.

Our contracts are also published proactively, so there was no attempt to obscure GC Strategies contracts.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I think the problem we have here is that the work that GC Strategies has done has only really been brought to light through the work of the Auditor General.

That work includes writing the contract requirements to the exclusion of other bidders. That's some of the work they've done. When they write a contract, who gets awarded the contract? They do.

There has been obscurity on the part of the CBSA on how the contracting processes worked and the amounts that have been given. The amounts have been revised up several times through reporting by the procurement office, the procurement ombud, the Auditor General, the work of parliamentary committee and through ATIPs. This information is not coming proactively from the CBSA. Every step of the way we're pulling this out. It seems like daylight is the last thing the CBSA wants to shed on this.

The subject of the failure to report gifts received by contractors or prospective contractors has also come to light.

Have you ever been offered any gift or benefit by GC Strategies or people involved with GC Strategies personally?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

When did you learn about the gifts that were offered to people who work for CBSA? When did you learn about this issue?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Is the reference to the hospitality that was offered?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, the free drinks and dinners that were offered by the two guys who work out of a basement and were made multi-millionaires on the backs of people who are lined up at food banks across the country in exchange for—