Public Accounts Committee on April 20th, 2026

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're now back to Mr. Kuruc for five minutes, please.

[Ned Kuruc, Conservative, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I find it extremely concerning that the Auditor General said, “This could affect the army, navy and air force's ability to respond to threats, emergencies or conflicts and accomplish their missions.”

Over the last 10 years, the Liberals have neglected our national defence. It's clear from the Auditor General's report that they let it get out of control. How is it that after nearly a decade of this Liberal government, the recruitment system has become so inefficient that it turns away the overwhelming majority of willing Canadians?

[Christiane Fox]

We have to focus our efforts on recruitment and retention. There is no doubt that it is essential. We have to make that process appropriate and responsive to people who apply.

These investments, in terms of the digital portal and the investments into infrastructure to have the right infrastructure in place, are key to our ability to do that successfully. I think we saw from the report the impact that this had and we're working toward it.

To your point around the geopolitical context and our ability to respond, we have to be able to respond. We have to take part in operations, both domestically and abroad, in order to contribute to our sovereignty and to global security. I think the more people we have to do that the better equipped we are as a country.

[Ned Kuruc, Conservative, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes, I agree. I agree with your answer, but then we see things like today. Obviously, there was going to be this committee today and we see a report come out that only states how many people have signed up, yet we fail.... We don't have the data on why they're leaving, how many are dropping off or how many are dropping off with the PR stuff. I look at this report that came out today as a bit of a way to negate what we're doing here and to escape some of these tough questions.

Where are we on this? Where are we on that data capturing? I think that's the essence of it. We need to know why Canadians are falling off.

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you very much for the question.

We launched the online portal that will give us better data. That needs to improve, and it's going to be consistent improvement. I think in June is the next 2.0 version of that portal. It will give us that data to allow us to better understand why people are dropping off. We have been doing some work to do both. Are there compensation drivers to this decision? Is it non-compensation? If it's non-compensation, then what is that? This is something where we're going to have to, first, have the ability to collect that data, and then assess it using that kind of evidence base to inform the decisions we will make.

The answer is that we are seized with this because it is a gap if we don't know why people are leaving. We have reinstituted exit interviews. We need to do that formally in a system, and then we need to drive our communications and we need to drive our recruitment based on what we hear.

[Ned Kuruc, Conservative, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

I'll cede the rest of my time to my colleague, Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to talk about first nations.

The Wendake reserve is in my riding, and I'm very proud to say that Lieutenant‑General Paul is Wendat. I'd also like to remind you that during the Second World War, the Cree Nation rendered service to the whole world by communicating in their language, which the enemy could not understand. We have sidelined first nations legacy much too often. I believe the Canadian army would benefit greatly from showcasing these impressive accomplishments more often.

That said, today, when it comes to recruitment targets, can you tell us where we are now and what needs to be done?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

Thank you for the question.

We have some very good news. It's not excellent, but it's definitely very good news. Last year, we recruited 3.4% of people from first nations. We had a target of 3.5% and we almost met it. That's a big part of why we want to move closer to first nations communities across Canada, including Quebec.

We'd like to open recruitment centres in Yellowknife and Saskatoon. Our list includes 18 other centres, and the common strand between them is to move us closer to first nations.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

You told us that there is no recruitment centre in Yellowknife.

That may be the case, but there are many members of first nations in Yellowknife. How come you're lagging behind?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

We're moving as fast as we can.

We expect to open the recruitment centre this year.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

None has been opened in the past 10 years.

Is that not be correct?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

No, none over the past few years.

I can't say we've never had one, but we haven't had one in the recent past. I'd have to cross-check that because I don't have a precise answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deltell.

Ms. Tesser Derksen, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our officials for attending today.

I want to thank the Auditor General, as always, for the report, which exposes some gaps and some definite room for improvement. I would confidently say that we seem to be moving in the right direction now, and that's definitely good news.

I want to speak specifically to exhibit 3 in the Auditor General's report, which highlights different targets over the past few years and is something that just jumped out at me. This covers the years of 2022, 2023 and 2024, and the target for recruitment was one in eight for several of those years. Those targets were not met. In 2022, we had recruiting at one in 11. For 2023, it was one in 16.

For 2024-25, the target was met. We had one in 12, but it looked like the target had actually changed. I'm just wondering why that 2024-25 target was moved.

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

This is the 77,000, which the Auditor General could speak more about, but the number of clicks on the “apply now” were not necessarily all serious applicants. They were people interested in joining the Canadian Armed Forces. Because they were seeking information, they hit the “apply now” button, which counted for one.

In terms of more information, if you click twice that would have recorded as two clicks, as two applicants. It was very problematic. This is why we generated the online applicant portal through which we then go back and forth with a preliminary check on age, citizenship and education. The age check is telling us that this is a real applicant. Now we have 44,000 of them and we just onboarded in the Canadian Armed Forces 7,310. That's a 7:1 ratio.

As for the 77,000, that was at the time that we were only intaking 3,000. That's a 13:1 ratio. I'm just struggling with the 77,000 because I right now would not consider them serious applicants, but in those days when the Auditor General's team was doing the analysis, they had no choice. They had nothing else to base their study on because we didn't have the online applicant portal. I truly value the Auditor General's report because they pointed us towards digitalization, towards reduction in applications, which we are implementing and now we are seeing the better ratio, which is 7:1.

I would compare it to our Five Eyes partners. Except for the United States, all the other ones are in the 8:1 ratio, so we are actually doing really well. The U.S. simply has a different system in place.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

That's good news. Thank you for that.

I also want to ask about the removal of the aptitude test. I noted in the Auditor General's report that one of the changes that was made was the removal of this Canadian Forces aptitude test. From what I understand, it evaluated verbal, spatial and problem-solving skills. Did something replace that test?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

The answer is yes. We have what we call the Raven test, which is not the final solution. We want to do a cognitive test, which we're implementing. We're working with service providers right now to define exactly what it's going to look like—ideally, off the shelf, easy to acquire and fast.

The downside of the Canadian Forces aptitude test was that it honestly was scaring people away. People saw it as a huge barrier, and probably as more than it was really about. Still, it was negatively perceived so we just removed it. We kept it downstream in only certain occupations for which we needed to select and we had no difficulties recruiting into. I would go with pilots, for example. We kept it there for them, but downstream, not at the recruiting stage.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Would it be a fair comment to say that Canadians can remain confident that the applicants or the recruits who are making it through to the final stages are, in fact, meeting aptitude requirements?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, absolutely. What I would add too is that as part of our recruitment efforts and modernizing, we made some changes as well to the medical evaluations to allow people to take part in basic training in the context of a further evaluation, whether that would be asthma or other types of conditions, and then look at potential flexibilities around what occupations those people could take on following basic training if in fact the condition was deemed to be less appropriate for one workforce. This is whereas in the past we probably would have made just a blanket decision. We're trying to introduce flexibilities in the system and not delay people's participation in the basic training as we do that.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for anyone on the panel. I want to point out how I understand audits to be. Particularly this one is focused on policy implementation, performance indicators and program management, which are all important, but I regularly make a habit of asking about workplace culture as well and the way things are done in a particular department or an agency due to the localized values and different conventions that develop in those spaces, which can sometimes be a little bit isolated or siloed. I'll direct this to Mr. Hayes.

Did your audit detect any workplace or management culture that either positively or negatively impacted recruitment performance?

[Andrew Hayes]

The answer to that question is that we looked at it from the perspective of why people might be reluctant to stay in the process or, for example, in the case of some individuals, leave after a couple of years of being in the forces. That did emerge as one of the reasons why, after four years and reaching the occupationally functional point, which is when they are fully trained, members left. It was because of training delays, difficulty adapting to military culture or dissatisfaction with their occupation. If you're looking for that in the report it's at paragraph 22.

To answer your question, it will happen that some people are not satisfied in a particular workplace for a number of reasons. What's important is identifying those reasons and addressing them where they can be addressed for retention purposes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time.

I noticed the lights flashing. I've sent a note to find out what's going on. We're going to continue for now, until we hear otherwise from the whips or the lobby. We're beginning our third round now, which will consist of five members with various times.

Mr. Stevenson, kick us off for five minutes, please.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you.

You piqued a bit of my interest. General Simoneau said something, and I just want to clarify.

Are the rangers now included under the umbrella of the military on both their numbers and their spending?

[LGen Stephen Kelsey]

We have always included them as part of our numbers. They're funded through the army. The junior rangers are funded through our organization. The recruiting is a distinct process that is community-led and not part of our recruiting—

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay. I'm curious because I have a small segment of rangers in the north end of my riding, in Grande Cache.

Earlier in this process, we were talking about how there were eight different systems that were electronically there, and now they're looking at improving their systems. Was this due to 10 years of lack of funding? You didn't know where your funding was. Was this because of priorities? They chose not to upgrade the electronic systems previously.

Was it because the Auditor General said that you must work together to get these things going that now it has become a priority?