Public Accounts Committee on May 6th, 2026

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I agree with that. That is what I was going to say.

Mr. Lemire, if the committee decides to pursue the study of the present motion, it doesn't mean that your motion is void.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That's perfect.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll just need a second.

Mr. McKinnon, you had your hand up earlier. Do you wish to speak to this?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I was fundamentally going to agree with you as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have to stop saying that in public.

Go ahead, Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

This motion is what's before us right now. We need to debate or vote on it. If there's any other motion we want to deal with, we can do it at that time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As you know, I can't call a vote. The debate has to collapse.

Mr. Lemire, the floor is yours.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I need clarification on two items, unless the information was sent by email, and I didn't see it.

I just want to make sure the departments are named. Is Shared Services Canada a department?

Is this department among the departments mentioned in the motion?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

ESDC—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have it here. Give me a second.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Deltell, the floor is yours.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

I'm told that the paper version says “la Comité” instead of “le Comité”.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Any other questions?

Mr. Lemire, the floor is yours.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'd like to raise a second issue. You'll note that there is unanimous consent to add the testimony of a witness who was mentioned in the original motion. It's John Ostrander, the former technical lead for the benefits delivery modernization program.

I'll explain why I think this is important. He was one of the main leaders of the modernization program. From 2017 to 2020, when the government chose the Cúram software, he was vice-president and general manager at IBM. He was vice-president at IBM when problems arose in Ontario in 2015. In the Auditor General's report, he is mentioned, in particular, in paragraph 1.66.

I think he's one of the people we'd like to ask many questions of.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

What exactly are you proposing as an amendment?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is, indeed, an amendment.

I move that the motion be amended by adding, after the words “associate deputy minister”, the words “John Ostrander, former technical lead, benefits delivery modernization”.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You mentioned Mr. Ostrander, but who's the other person mentioned?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Groen is already mentioned in the motion. My amendment would add Mr. Ostrander to the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It's Mr. Osborne and then Ms. Tesser Derksen.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think our side is okay with adding this as an amendment.

The only caution I'd put to the group is that we can compel the first witness, but I believe Mr. Ostrander is retired. We can invite him, but I'm not sure we can compel him.

We're okay with adding that as an amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay.

Ms. Tesser Derksen, would you like to speak to that? I didn't mean to bypass you. I just saw Mr. Osborne's hand up first.

Is that agreed to in principle?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I'm going to suspend....

Mr. Lemire, the floor is yours.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would invite the committee to proceed to a vote on the preceding motion, which we debated until 8 p.m. on Monday, so that we can deal with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

In order to come back to this motion, which is a dilatory motion, we require a vote.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Before we do, I'd like to add—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You asked to come back to this motion, which is a dilatory motion.

There's no debate, so I'm going to have the clerk turn to the vote, please.

You're voting yes to go back to Monsieur Lemire's motion right now, and no is to not.

(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)