Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Giuliano Zaccardelli  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I would like to call to order the tenth meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. According to Standing Order 108(2), we'll be examining the study of the report of the commission of inquiry on the events relating to Mr. Maher Arar.

Our witness this morning from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is Commissioner Zaccardelli. Mr. Zaccardelli, I welcome you to the committee. We will give you an opportunity to make some remarks, ten minutes or so, however you see fit, and then we will allow time for questions. This meeting will run for approximately two hours. The procedure at the committee, as you probably know, is to have the official opposition begin the questioning. We then rotate according to parties and keep going in rotation.

Again, welcome to the committee. We'll begin with any remarks you would like to make in regard to this issue.

Thank you.

10 a.m.

Commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

I have been looking forward to this opportunity to meet with the Committee in order to respond to the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Actions of Canadian Officials in Relation to Maher Arar and to respond to your questions.

I believe that the importance of the review that has been carried out cannot be overstated. It is just such open, challenging, and intensive analysis that assures Canadians that mistakes will never be swept under a carpet in this country, nor will institutions or individuals in power be absolved from accountability in any instance where questions arise.

The famous scholar Arnold Toynbee wrote that the evolution of an individual, organization, or society is determined by the ability to respond successfully to challenges, both human and environmental.

As have all Canadians, I have observed the dignity of Mr. Arar's and Ms. Mazigh's response to the nightmare they found themselves thrust into three years ago.

Mr. Arar, I wish to take this opportunity to express publicly to you, to your wife, and to your children how truly sorry I am for whatever part the actions of the RCMP may have contributed to the terrible injustices that you experienced and the pain that you and your family endured.

I know that an apology can never give back to Mr. Arar what was taken from him, but what we can do is move forward with changes and reform. That means in very concrete terms identifying and acknowledging errors that were made, implementing whatever change is required to address them, and by recommitting ourselves to the very heart of our purpose: to do our best to serve and protect all Canadians and our country.

My objective today is not so much to go into the details of this case, as that has exhaustively been addressed by Justice O'Connor.

Rather, it is to share with the Committee and through you, to the public, my personal reaction to Justice O'Connor's report, as well as the actions that the RCMP already has taken and will take going forward.

My ultimate goal is to assure Canadians that I and indeed all who work in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police will do whatever we can to see that no other Canadian citizen will ever suffer what happened to the Arar family.

At this time I'd like to commence specifically with three elements of the report. First, on the Project A-O Canada team, the investigative unit of the RCMP created in the aftermath of 9/11, Justice O'Connor confirmed that Project A-O Canada was comprised of a first-rate team of investigators that had extensive experience in large and complicated investigations. It lacked, however, experience and training with respect to the unique aspect of national security investigations, including the area of information sharing with the Americans. The investigative team wasn't provided with appropriate guidance and direction from within the RCMP.

Second, on the actions undertaken by the RCMP, appropriate investigative steps were taken by Project A-O Canada, the investigative unit of the RCMP created in the aftermath of 9/11. However, information was provided to U.S. agencies without first screening for relevance or reliability or for personal information. Furthermore, written caveats were not attached to information provided. Although a specific effort was made to correct the mistaken label while Mr. Arar was still in custody in New York, Justice O'Connor found it to be inadequate. Justice O'Connor determined that while the border lookout request was a reasonable investigative step, it mischaracterized Mr. Arar and his wife and labelled them unfairly.

Having addressed that, Justice O'Connor underscored that there was no bad faith shown by the RCMP investigators. In no way did they intend or know that their actions would contribute to the removal of a Canadian citizen to Syria. He also found that RCMP officials did not know, participate in, or acquiesce to the U.S. decision to detain and remove Mr. Arar to Syria. With regard to the actions of the RCMP, Justice O'Connor found that a high-level briefing to senior government officials was incomplete and lacked balance.

These are mistakes that were indeed made. They would not happen today.

Third, on the context within which these events occurred, I think it is vitally important that the events in question be put into context, a context of a unique time in the world and for all of the areas of government responsible for responding to terrorism.

As Justice O'Connor stated in his report:

Following the events of September 11, 2001, those involved in protecting Canada's national security were confronted with unprecedented challenges.

An all-out effort was being made by western intelligence and law enforcement agencies, including Canada's, to track down individuals involved in the 9/11 conspiracy. Moreover, there was a significant fear, not without foundation, of a second wage of attacks.

It is true that the early days after 9/11 were confusing and challenging. Of course, this doesn't excuse us or allow us to avoid facing head-on the ramifications of that time, but the fact is we were in a very different world on September 12, a world that was new to us, to all of us, especially to those of us charged with the safety and security of our country.

We've learned valuable lessons in security since then, and some of them, particularly in this case, we learned painfully.

I accept the recommendations in the report without exception. Many changes are already underway in the RCMP that align with the recommendations that have been made.

These include the following.

We have strengthened our management through implementation of a new secure record system, allowing for real-time supervision of ongoing investigative information.

We have made changes to policy and procedures to provide concise direction on information handling and sharing. This includes the creation of a sensitive document-handling unit at RCMP headquarters that will ensure criminal intelligence is properly vetted and controlled.

Our national security training program has been modernized to address mandates, policy, and instruction on sensitivities to cultural norms.

We have expanded our outreach programs and created a prototype National Security Community Advisory Committee in Ottawa that will serve as a model nationwide.

We have been continuously reviewing our written agreements, our compliance with policy and ministerial directives, central coordination, and information sharing.

We have initiated a number of ongoing quality control programs and have developed a template for a memorandum of understanding in the national security context.

In addition to these, we will be moving swiftly to implement all changes that will achieve the overall goal I have already stated.

Ladies and Gentlemen I know that you will have many questions in the time that we have today, and I look forward to responding. But before we move to that, I would like to make two additional comments.

First, I would like you to know that this terrible event has had a profound impact on the RCMP. Ever since Mr. Arar was sent to Syria, many thoughtful people have been struggling with the question of what is the appropriate role of a modern-day police force.

It is a terrible truth that we have had to acknowledge that in the pursuit of justice against those who would destroy our way of life, innocent people can be swept up in our search to find those who might harm us. It happened in this instance. Nothing is more important than preventing such a mistake from happening again. Neither is anything more important than protecting Canadians and our very existence in the face of those who are committed to doing us harm in the horrific ways that we have seen.

I am not sure what the answer is to these bigger questions we are grappling with. Certainly the work of Justice O'Connor helps us all gain a better understanding of how to achieve both of these goals.

Second, I'd like to share with you the one shining certainty that illuminates, for me, the way forward in this dark time, for myself and for the Force.

And it is this. As we in the RCMP undertake the complex and sometimes overwhelming task of keeping our country safe and our communities vital, nothing undermines our shared and deep determination to serve and protect. There isn't a Mountie in this country who did not enter their chosen career with the sole intention to do their best; to make their unique contribution to law enforcement and the well-being of communities and of others; who doesn't know that on the day they graduate from the academy in Regina that their career will involve sacrifice, difficulty, danger, and yes, even the fear of making mistakes.

Thirty six years ago I made that same commitment--that I would serve my country to the best of my ability, uphold and live by the law and do all that I could to live the values that define what is best in all of us.

Today, I reaffirm this commitment and assure you that, personally and as a leader of this great Canadian institution, I will strive to meet the challenges before us in that same spirit.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the honour of working with and alongside the most dedicated and duty-bound men and women you could ever imagine. Our dream is of a safe, just, and peaceful Canada. I know that every Canadian shares in the same, and that together we will continue to strive to maintain all that we have achieved in this remarkable country towards that goal.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you, Commissioner, for your opening statement.

We will now proceed to questions. The procedure at this committee is that the questions and answers will be seven minutes. I will adhere strictly to that guideline. Each one of the political parties will have an opportunity to have a turn on the seven-minute round, and then we will go to five-minute rounds, with the agreed rotation that we had previously.

So without any further ado, Mr. Cotler, would you please proceed with your questions?

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also would like to welcome you, Commissioner, and express my appreciation to you for your public apology this morning on behalf of the RCMP to Maher Arar and his family for the terrible injustice, as you put it, that they experienced and the nightmare they endured, and also for putting in place the recommendations set forth by the O'Connor commission

As you know, Commissioner, the principal findings of the O'Connor commission were not only that Maher Arar was an innocent person, but that indeed he was the innocent victim of both the American and Syrian governments and the actions of Canadian officials. In particular, the commission found that while the RCMP, as you yourself stated, did not know, participate in, or acquiesce in the United States' decision to deport Mr. Arar to Syria, RCMP officials, nonetheless, one, conveyed false and misleading information to American authorities, which, in the words of the commission, likely contributed to Arar's removal to Syria and the torture he then experienced; two, provided inaccurate and misleading information to the Privy Council and the government ministers; and three, deliberately leaked false and misleading information to the public after Maher Arar's release--and one would say knowingly so--the consequences of which were devastating for Maher Arar and his reputation, as the commission put it.

My question, then, to you, Commissioner, is this. What did you know and when did you know it? In particular, were you aware of the conveyance of the false and misleading information by RCMP officials to a U.S. authority that likely contributed to his removal, for example, that Maher Arar and his wife were Islamic extremists who were associated with the al-Qaeda terrorist movement, a characterization that, as the commission put it, would have disastrous consequences if so made as it was?

Those are my questions to you, Commissioner.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you, Mr. Cotler.

Commissioner, perhaps you would like to reply to that, please.

10:15 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

I appreciate the question, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, with respect to what I knew about the mislabelling or false information concerning Mr. Arar, I was aware a serious investigation had been going on for some time. I was aware that there was a person in the file by the name of Mr. Arar who was a person of interest.

I personally became directly involved in the file after Mr. Arar was detained and sent to Syria. After he was in Syria, the matter was brought to my attention. I informed myself of that. I asked for the file and I asked for specific documents relating to what happened.

In the process of getting that information, I found out that investigators were speaking with American officials while he was in detention. As part of that discussion or that correspondence with RCMP officials, I learned that in this process they tried to correct what was labelled as false or incorrect information with regard to Mr. Arar. That was the first time it came to my attention that there was a possibility or that we had mislabelled or mischaracterized Mr. Arar in our dealings with him in the investigation. That was my first point of knowledge about the matter, and I inquired further how this had happened.

Does that answer the question? I'm willing to take further questions. I think the point was when did I know, and I think I've explained that. That's the first point.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

There are approximately two minutes left. Do you have a supplementary question?

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I have a supplementary question.

Commissioner, in the post-9/11 environment, as you characterize it--and this false and misleading characterization was made before the actual detention by American authorities--if a characterization was made of a person of interest like Maher Arar to the effect that he was an Islamic extremist associated with the al-Qaeda terrorist movement, ought you to have known? It is not whether you knew, as you said you did not, but in the post-9/11 environment in your capacity as Commissioner of the RCMP, ought you to have known such a significant characterization was being made?

10:20 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Chairman, right after 9/11, the RCMP was involved in literally thousands of investigations related to matters of national security. There were many people who were the subject of investigations or discussions and so on.

As I stated, I was not personally aware of this case. When I became aware of it, I became involved in the matter.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Is there any further questioning?

Monsieur Ménard, you have seven minutes, please.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Commissioner, first of all, I take note that you readily accept Justice O'Connor's criticisms and that you intend to implement all his recommendations.

The first question that came to my mind was the same as that of my colleague, Mr. Cotler. When did you learn that it was the wrong information given by the RCMP that likely contributed to what happened to Mr. Arar and to his removal to Syria?

I also have a further question. When did you become personally convinced that Mr. Arar was not a terrorist and had no links whatsoever to any terrorist organization?

10:20 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Thank you for your question.

As I explained to Mr. Cotler, this happened at the same time. It is when I was inquiring into what happened in Mr. Arar's case that I learned that our investigators were trying to correct the false information that had been conveyed to the U.S. authorities. It is at that time that I was made aware of the correspondence between the Americans and the RCMP investigators. This is then that I found out that false information had been conveyed concerning Mr. Arar.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Then, if that information was false, an innocent man had been subjected to a terrible ordeal.

When the minister enquired about this matter, why didn't you let him know that you were convinced that mistakes had been made and that Mr. Arar was not a terrorist, that there was no reason to send him to a country where he might probably be tortured?

10:20 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Chairman, as I have said, I learned that a mistake had been made, that the information concerning Mr. Arar was false, after Mr. Arar was imprisoned. At the same time, I learned that the investigators had made an effort to correct that false information, but it was after Mr. Arar was imprisoned.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Didn't you realize, at any time, that the minister believed that Mr. Arar was a terrorist when you knew that he was not?

10:20 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Chairman, usually, the minister is not aware of criminal investigations conducted by the RCMP. I cannot make any comments concerning the exact information in the hands of the minister. Normally, when there is a national security investigation, which was the case, the minister is not informed of what the RCMP is doing in conducting a national security investigation.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Didn't you think that it was important even then to correct the damage to Mr. Arar's reputation?

10:25 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

When we learned what had occurred, we had discussions with the minister to inform him of the situation and we began to notify the authorities of what had happened in this case.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

At a certain time, Mr. Arar's lawyer tried to get the agreement of the RCMP on four specific points. It seems apparent that the RCMP did not agree. Why? This letter could have facilitated the release of Mr. Arar from Syria.

10:25 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

It was part of the investigation. The investigators had several discussions with the lawyer. The fact is that on some points, the RCMP investigators were ready to support what the lawyer requested, but there was a specific point on which they could not agree. This fact was raised in Justice O'Connor's inquiry.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

In any case, you found out later on that there seemed to be some leaks from the RCMP, to the press, confirming once more that if Mr. Arar was detained, it was because he was a terrorist after all.

You were not too happy with those leaks, isn't it?

10:25 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Chairman, I know that leaks have occurred. The RCMP has launched an investigation on its own to find the source of these leaks. As Justice O'Connor has said, the source of these leaks is still unknown and the investigation on that issue is going on.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

If you find the people involved in those leaks, how do you intend to deal with them?

10:25 a.m.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

We shall proceed as we usually do in criminal investigations. We shall meet the Crown prosecutor and try to establish if formal accusations can be submitted. What occurred is disgraceful. Such leaks are illegal. We always investigate. As you know, it is still before the courts and we didn't have access to some documents that we would have liked to study after executing our search warrants.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Zaccardelli, if you think that the false information conveyed by the RCMP has resulted in Mr. Arar's terrible ordeal, considering that you don't seem to have done much to help him return from Syria and to repair the damage to his reputation, that there were leaks, do you really think that, as you said in a memo to your people, the RCMP has done a good job?