Public Safety Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We will now move to the third round of questioning. There are two questioners in this round, one from the opposition side and one from the government side.

Mr. McTeague, please.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Commissioner, thank you for being here today. I also appreciate the apology you have offered to Mr. Arar and Monia Mazigh.

I have some questions dealing with the existing protocols governing the sharing of criminal intelligence with foreign entities prior to 9/11. I want to know if you can inform this committee as to the nature of those protocols, and if indeed those same protocols were applicable to the sharing of national security information and intelligence after 9/11.

If there were strict guidelines with respect to the sharing of intelligence with foreign agencies, can you tell this committee who authorized the RCMP, and more specifically Project A-O, to circumvent the existing protocols in the Arar case? Have you tried to find out if anyone from Project A-O was in fact responsible for this? Did they ever voice concerns to you? And why didn't you raise these concerns with the minister?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, there are protocols and laws that regulate the exchange of information among countries. It's important to understand that when the RCMP do what is considered a national security investigation, it is still a criminal investigation, which we are mandated to carry out, so we do that. There are protocols that govern this exchange of information in terms of caveats and so on, as you've heard.

There were policies, and there are policies, in place that Justice O'Connor recognized as being good policies pre-9/11 and post-9/11, although we have made some changes and tried to improve them and tighten them up. The issue here, and I accept responsibility for it, is that certain of those policies were not followed or were not respected, and some information was exchanged contrary to that policy by members of the investigation team.

On this investigation team, it's important to remember that this was in October 2001, when there was huge pressure and a lot of concern. So there was an attempt to maximize the exchange of information for the benefit of everyone, especially for protecting Canadians. The exchange of information with our friends and allies around the world is critical to the safety and security of Canadians, but it must always be done within the rules and the policies that exist.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Commissioner, I think many of us were concerned about the move by the RCMP in this case, and in three other cases that I want to allude to, from your traditional role of investigative enforcement into the area of sharing of criminal intelligence. It's a matter that is clearly, as identified by the commissioner himself, not your responsibility. I'm hoping there isn't the need for another royal commission to determine that, but I think it's very clear that a serious line has been crossed here, and I think your comments reflect that.

Commissioner, in light of the findings of the same report by Justice O'Connor, can you guarantee to this committee that you have personally examined similar actions and cases with respect to Ahmad El Maati, Abdullah Almalki, and Muayyed Nureddin? If not, why not? If you have done so, are you confident that these men were not subject to the same excesses that Mr. Arar was subject to, in light of the determination of the case by Justice O'Connor?

On a personal note, as someone who has actively sought the release of these individuals, I must tell you that I find it both unacceptable and unconscionable that dubious information would have been given by your agency such that these individuals would find themselves having that same information shared not with U.S. officials...but with the same questions asked of Syrian officials.

I would like to ask you this. Are you absolutely sure, and are you prepared to apologize to those three individuals, and for that matter any other Canadian for whom the RCMP has misleadingly given information that may jeopardize their lives or standing as they travel abroad?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I must respectfully disagree with the premise of the honourable member's questions.

The first part of his question deals with our presence in criminal investigations related to national security matters. We clearly have that mandate, and we've always had that mandate. That mandate goes right back to Justice McDonald and the McDonald inquiry. Every national security issue, every terrorist attack, from Bali to Spain to London, has been investigated in part as a criminal matter by the police. It's our role, and that's what we have done.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Does that include the sharing of information with foreign entities, Commissioner?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, we are only talking about—

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I think my question is very specific, Mr. Chairman.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

—sharing intelligence, criminal intelligence, with our friends and allies. Justice O'Connor clearly recognizes the importance of that to ensure the safety of Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, sir.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, if I could just comment further, the honourable member mentioned a number of other cases.

There are criminal investigations going on that I cannot allude to. But the exchange of information relative to any case is always done with respect to the law, and that's what we've done in every case. Where we've made mistakes, as Justice O'Connor has indicated them, we have accepted them and we have put into place measures to correct them.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

You should apologize to those three men.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you,

We'll now move to Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here.

I only want to follow up on and solidify something my honourable colleague said.

Recommendation 6 says:

The RCMP should maintain its policy of sharing information obtained in the course of national security investigations with other agencies and police departments, both domestic and foreign.

He goes on to say in his report that :

RCMP's current policies with respect to information sharing are essentially sound.

Would you comment on that, or agree or disagree?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I totally agree. Not to share information would put the security of Canadians at serious risk.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

The main purpose in looking backwards at anything, I think, is to see our way forward.

I think it's fair to say that the RCMP, like other organizations, such as the Canadian Forces, have over the past number of years been undermanned, underfunded, and overtasked. In a situation like that it is natural that experience levels decline, and it's probably natural that mistakes are made. Certainly mistakes were made in this case.

It's obviously a very subjective question for a very subjective answer, but how much impact do you think the long-term undermanning, underfunding, and overtasking had in mistakes that were made in this particular case?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, when 9/11 happened there wasn't a country in the world, a police force or a security agency in the world, that didn't find itself underresourced in terms of personnel, in terms of equipment and other resources. What we all did, and especially we in Canada from that very day, was move to redeploy resources to improve the situation. We did have to put, in some cases, people into positions that they may not have been trained for, but our men and women in law enforcement in this country are trained to take on a multitude of tasks, even though they may not have the particular expertise, and that's what we did.

The previous government and this government have given us substantial resources to deal with these matters, and we're very pleased with that. There's always a need for more resources. It's a question of balance. It's a question of leveraging our collective resources and working together, as Justice O'Connor has said, with CSIS and the RCMP and other agencies, and with our foreign partners so that we can work better and protect the citizens of all our countries.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We've dwelled a lot on the mistakes in the Maher Arar case and some other cases that have just been mentioned, and those are obviously regrettable. Can you give us some sense of the other side of that? How many cases or how many situations have been averted to the benefit of Canadian and/or international security?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Proving the negative, Mr. Chairman, is always difficult, but it's very clear, because we deal with thousands of cases. Unfortunately, we've had to deal with thousands of cases in this country and also in partnership with our other allies around the world. A lot of them have been successful, and they don't make the news, but we have heard about some very successful ones. We will continue to do the best we can to keep Canadians as safe as possible.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You've already mentioned that you have, in your view, the ability and the willingness to keep serving in your current role. I'm trying not to make this sound unfair, but you've served 36 years in uniform, which is tremendous, and six years as the commissioner. You have, in your view, the ability and willingness to go on. Do you think you have the confidence of your department and the government--and don't ask the question back to me, please--to carry on in your current position?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I think the record is clear. My minister has made his statement. I believe I've received nothing but the greatest support from my organization.

I'm an immigrant to this country. My father said, “You're here now, serve the country.” That's all I've ever wanted to do. This is the only uniform I will ever wear; this is the only job I will ever do.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We talked about experience and a lack of training and so on. When the information was given to the U.S. personnel or agencies, were you relying, or do you think your folks might have been relying, on the U.S. agencies doing due diligence on the information given to them?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I was personally shocked when I heard that possibly the only basis of whatever action was taken may have been the RCMP's information. Our information was not correct.

I thought about that, and I thought about what, if I had received that information and the roles were reversed, we would have done. I can assure you we would have done due diligence, we would have carried out an investigation, we would have looked to see if there was any evidence, we would have gone to a crown attorney, we would have consulted. That's what we would have done. I don't know the information that was relied upon, and Justice O'Connor clearly states he can't be definitive on that. If that's what was relied upon...I was shocked.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. The time is up. We'll now move to the fourth round, and we're back to the official opposition.

Mr. Holland, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I'm wondering if you can tell me if either last Friday or last Sunday you had a meeting with Minister Day.