Public Safety Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll now have to move to the Bloc Québécois.

Ms. Bonsant.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Zaccardelli. I just have a comment to make. Yesterday, I was deeply touched to see a picture of Mr. Arar laughing. After the terrible ordeal that he suffered during three years with his wife, I was deeply touched to see him smiling.

To make sure that no other family will live what he had to go through, I want to know if your famous Project A-O Canada is still in existence. If yes, will the same people continue doing the same work following the same directives?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, the project that I mentioned in my presentation still exists because we are still pursuing a criminal investigation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You are going to be sharing your time with Monsieur Ménard?

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes. I shall share my time with Mr. Ménard.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, there was a second part to that question. Many changes are occurring within the Project A-O Canada team, as it is often the case. The investigators are not the same as in 2001-2002. There has been some changes, but I cannot give you precisely the names of the team members. I know that the first two investigators are no longer part of the team.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Commissioner, I already said how I appreciate that you have accapted the criticisms, your intention to correct the situation and the excuses that you submitted to the Arar family, which I hope will be followed by others who should do the same.

However, I am very concerned over a fundamental issue after listening to your statement. As soon as you knew that Mr. Arar was in Syria, you asked to see the file. You knew that a mistake made by the RCMP had resulted in his ordeal. As everyone can tell, you let him rot for almost a year in a Syrian prison. Before the publication of the O'Connor Inquiry Report, most Canadians--not all--thought that Mr. Arar had terrorist links, but you knew that it was false.

How could you, as a police officer, leave in jail someone you knew to be innocent? It was you organization that triggered what led to his imprisonment.

Furthermore, seeing the numerous attempts to tarnish his reputation in order to justify his incarceration, why didn't you find a way to intervene and personally inform correctly the minister? You also knew that political authorities and the minister of that time seemed to believe those who told them that if Mr. Arar was not a terrorist he had at least terrorist links and was deep down partly responsible for his own situation.

Furthermore, I can see that the reform plans you have told us about have not been developed only after the release of Justice O'Connor's report. From what you told us, you knew that this was a serious problem to which you had already started to find some solutions.

Why didn't you make all possible efforts to see to it that Mr. Arar was returned to Canada and his reputation was repaired before the release of the report?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, Justice O'Connor said clearly in his report that he couldn't be 100% sure of the information used by the Americans in their decision to detain Mr. Arar in New York and send him to Syria. This is very clearly stated in the report.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I am sorry to interrupt you but our time is so short here. Have you asked the Americans what was the reason for sending him to Syria?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I shall continue my answer.

Justice O'Connor said that he could not be 100% sure of the reason why he was sent to Syria. We acknowledged that false information had been conveyed to the Americans, that while Mr. Arar was in New York, we have clearly said to the U.S. authorities that our information was wrong. We attempted to correct that information. Except for that, I have no information nor any indication on the reason why the Americans made their decision.

After we learned that Mr. Arar was detained in Syria, as Justice O'Connor said, several attempts were made to get him released. Discussions occurred between several departments here in Canada. Justice O'Connor said that all possible efforts might not have been made, that there might have been a lack of communication between departments. This is true and we shall do our best to improve cooperation between various agencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, sir.

We'll now move over to the government side.

Mr. Brown.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Commissioner, for appearing today. I appreciate that you see this as the committee that should be hearing from you.

I do think all Canadians are happy that the RCMP has taken this responsibility. We all know that this happened right after 9/11, when Ground Zero was still smouldering. But there are so many questions that are I think still left unanswered.

First, do you know if the Americans were investigating Mr. Arar prior to Canada and the RCMP getting involved?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I do not have any information on what the Americans were doing, nor do I have any information on what was the basis of their decision to detain him and send him to Syria.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

So it's your belief that any actions they took came out of information that was supplied by the RCMP.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, as I've stated, Justice O'Connor himself says he cannot be definitive on what was the basis of the Americans' actions in this matter. We do not know that. We know that we attempted to, and we did, clarify--the RCMP did clarify--the false information they had provided. We did that while he was still in New York.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you for that.

Did you ever have any ministerial directives after Mr. Arar was detained and sent to Syria?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, a lot of discussions took place after Mr. Arar was imprisoned. Discussions took place that did lead to ministerial directions from the minister. So we discussed those, and a number of directives were given to the RCMP relative to investigations in the area of national security matters.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

That said about national security matters, can you share any of those directives with us?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

They exist, obviously, as a record. I don't have them here with me, but I'm sure the department...or Justice O'Connor, I believe, has seen those. I stand to be corrected on this, but I'm sure all of that type of information would have been made available to Justice O'Connor.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

There are so many questions I'd like to ask, but one of the areas I have a great deal of concern about is these leaks and the investigation by the RCMP of their own.

What did you do upon first finding out about these leaks? Has there been a thorough investigation? You've obviously taken some responsibility on that, but have these officers been given polygraphs? Maybe you can tell us a little more about the investigation, because I think it gets right to the heart of this, and there are still some questions left unanswered in this area.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I respectfully have to correct the honourable member, Mr. Chairman, in that we don't know where the leaks have come from. Justice O'Connor himself says we don't know where the leaks have come from.

As I've repeated several times, when we became aware of the leaks, we recognized the damage it was doing to Mr. Arar. We undertook at the highest level to put together a team and we had an investigation undertaken. We executed a number of search warrants relative to that. Some of the results or the seizures of that search warrant have been in court, subject to challenges by the media. We respect that. It is an active investigation.

I am very concerned, because, as I said, leaks of this manner go right to the heart of what this democracy is all about. There is nothing I take more seriously than trying to get to the bottom of this matter, but as has been said here, these are some of the most difficult and complex types of investigations to undertake and to succeed at.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Are there still ongoing attempts to get to the bottom of that? As you said, this goes right to the heart of our democracy.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Absolutely. And we're hopeful that we're going to be successful in court to get access to the information that we seized under the search warrants, which were issued by a lawful court. We will continue this investigation until every avenue possible has been explored.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you.