Public Safety Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

While this was going on, did your organization receive any direct or indirect political direction on what should occur with respect to the information once it was known that the Americans might have been acting on some incorrect information from Canada?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

To my knowledge, we have never received any direction from anyone at the political level in this country. The independence of the police when they're carrying out criminal investigations is well-established. I am not aware of and have never been subject at any time to any type of political direction or directive to help me deal with my work. That simply has never happened, and it didn't happen in this case.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

You've indicated, and I think others have indicated, that in light of 9/11 people reacted differently. There were different thought processes. Sometimes the emotions of the people in the field—and not being critical of them—were also part of it.

I'll read you a quote from an op-ed in The New York Times dated May 2004: “But defeating terror requires violence. It may also require coercion, secrecy, deception, even violation of rights.”

Would that be a concern or comment that would apply to a number of Canadians after 9/11? If some of those things don't end up permeating into our organizations without direct thought...but if I said that was written by a current member of Parliament in 2004, would I be wrong in saying that many Canadians may have felt that way?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I can assure you that in the RCMP and all the other organizations in this country that have dealt with national security matters, none of them support or believe or have acted in any way according to what has been described. At all times and in all circumstances we have said and will continue to say that we operate by the charter and under the charter at all times.

We face difficulties in dealing with terrorism, but never can people's rights be violated and never can the charter not be respected. We may make mistakes—and as I said, I'm painfully sorry for that—but never can the charter be disregarded in any type of investigation--criminal, national security, or otherwise.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

You indicated earlier that as a result of what you know today, and partly through the inquiry into Mr. Arar's situation, that would not happen today in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Could you give us a brief explanation of what changes have occurred inside the organization to ensure it doesn't happen?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that all national security investigations, for example, in the RCMP are now highly centralized and controlled at the centre.

Our training, which Justice O'Connor clearly highlights wasn't available because of the exigent circumstances at the time, has been put into place. In our relationship with CSIS, for example, we meet on a regular basis to exchange information and work together in a collaborative way. The way we manage the files.... Most important is the thread that comes through Justice O'Connor's report, and I think Mr. Cotler alluded to it. It is that we now know and have a much greater appreciation of the impact of what words or statements mean if they are not considered and weighed appropriately. That's the big lesson for me.

We have the systems in place, I guarantee you. The consequences would be much more severe, but I believe we now have in place a very good system to avoid the reoccurrence of that type of repetition or that type of error.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

My friends opposite have talked about the leaks. Having had the opportunity of looking at this and knowing that leaks are an extremely difficult.... Would you agree with me that generally two people are involved in a leak? One of them is inside the organization and one is on the outside. The one on the outside is not going to be obligated, nor will they reveal the source of the leak.

To identify a leak becomes a very difficult, almost impossible, task. That being said, you can spend a great deal of time at it, and there are some circumstances, but how can we be sure now that the opportunity to create the leak from inside, if it did come from your organization, would be minimized or eliminated?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

The great challenge, of course, is that you can't guarantee or you can't eliminate it, but it is a very insidious crime. It goes right to the heart of the issue of trust in society.

We put into place policies and regulations to try to prevent that, to the best of our ability, and I believe we are much more effective now in controlling and tracking information, which is a major way to determine how the leaks may or may not occur. We have improved the system substantially in this area. As you said, sir, the issue of leaks is very difficult, but that should never ever stop us from undertaking the investigations and putting the resources required to try to get to the bottom of the issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Your time is up, Mr. MacKenzie.

We will now move to the second round of questions. These are five minutes in duration. We'll begin with Mr. Holland, from the Liberal Party.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Commissioner, for appearing before us today.

Commissioner, certainly I appreciate the apology deeply, as I'm sure the Arar family does; this has been said.

The concern that I have up front, Commissioner, is that we are now nine days past the date that Justice O'Connor's report was issued. We have waited over that period of time--the Arar family has waited, the Canadian public has waited--for a response, yet none has been forthcoming until this point in time, and I think it's prudent to point out that in fact your presence here today is as a result of the committee's request for you to appear.

A statement was not offered by you without your having been requested to have one, which is a concern to me. That leads me to a couple of yes or no questions that I hope we can get through rather quickly to find out why that happened, and then there are some questions to follow that.

First, were you at any time, directly or indirectly, told, or did you receive any political direction from the government, not to publicly discuss the findings of the Justice O'Connor report over the last nine days?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, this is a very serious matter. This is the committee of Parliament that deals with this very serious matter. I believe this was the right place to come and make the statement that I knew I needed to make. That's what I did. I was ready to appear before this committee had you sat sooner. I heard indications last week you might be sitting. This is a serious matter. This is a serious committee, and that's why I'm here today.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'll repeat the question. Did you receive any political direction not to discuss publicly the findings of the O'Connor report in the last nine days? Further, is it true that your office prepared a statement responding to the report, a statement you intended to deliver publicly at a press conference or by another means?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

The only statement that I prepared to deliver anywhere was the statement I made here this morning. I came here because I believed, on my own, that this was the right place to come at this time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Did you receive any political direction to not publicly discuss the report?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Absolutely not.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Did you at any time offer to tender your resignation, in light of the report's findings?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I have read Justice O'Connor's report. I have looked very clearly at the actions of the members involved in this very difficult and complex investigation. I believe the analysis, in my respectful opinion, does not call for me to step down.

I'd like to make one further comment, Mr. Chairman.

You know, there are two kinds of people in this world. There are those who are faced with difficulties and they throw up their hands and walk away from the challenge. There are those who roll up their sleeves and decide they're going to fix what went wrong. I'm a person who fits in the latter category.

I, and the members of the RCMP, understand the issues here and the mistakes we made. We're committed to correcting those mistakes, working with Canadians, and by learning, we will be a better organization because of that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just to repeat the question, Mr. Chair, in light of the report's findings, did you offer your resignation, and did you in fact prepare a letter of resignation?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I have just stated that I roll up my sleeves and do my work. I'm the Commissioner of the RCMP and I intend to continue being the Commissioner of the RCMP.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Are you choosing not to answer the question?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It's just yes or no. Did you offer your resignation at any point in time over the last nine days?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I did not, but as I said, Mr. Chairman, I accept my responsibilities; I accept Justice O'Connor's report; and I am working diligently to lead this great organization to be better than it is by learning from our mistakes, for the benefit of all Canadians.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chairman, we know that the leaks in fact began even before the period of time that Justice O'Connor looked at; they began in 2002. In fact, those leaks were used by the then opposition Conservatives to characterize Mr. Arar as a terrorist and to attack the Canadian government for not moving more quickly to condemn him and cooperate with U.S. authorities.

In light of the fact that these leaks occurred over 2002 and beyond--over a very long, protracted period of time--why was the attention of the RCMP at the highest level, at the commissioner level, not focused on this to ensure that further mistakes did not happen, when in fact we know that during the period between 2003 to 2005 misleading information was still being given to U.S. authorities?

You said you've accepted the findings of the O'Connor report that said full information was not given. Why did we not see intervention at the highest level, starting as early as the first leaks in 2002, to ensure that the type of thing that has happened didn't occur?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I cannot accept a number of the premises that preceded the question.

When we found out about the leaks in the RCMP, as I stated, we undertook a serious criminal investigation at the highest level. And that is ongoing today.