Public Safety Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That will be the last question, Monsieur Ménard.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, Justice O'Connor said in his report that mistakes have been made, but he also said that neither the RCMP nor any other Canadian participated in the decision to detain Mr. Arar in New York and send him to Syria.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We'll now move to Mr. Comartin from the NDP for his round of questions.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Zaccardelli, for being here today.

Mr. Commissioner, I appreciate--and I can tell you that I'm sure Mr. Arar and Dr. Mazigh appreciate--the apology you gave this morning, but I can tell you from communications I've had from them as recently as this morning that they're very distressed. They're distressed at what happened yesterday, when your spokespeople indicated—at least one of them did, and then we got a contradiction—that there may still be a file open by the RCMP. They wouldn't deny it; they wouldn't admit it. But they left open the possibility, in La Presse yesterday, in Gilles Toupin's article. I don't know if you've seen that. I don't know if you know who these people are within your agency. But they're still leaving open the possibility that there's an investigation going on involving Mr. Arar.

Secondly, this week we've had one of your former members, now at the municipal police force level, come out and in effect generally repudiate the determinations of fact that were made by Justice O'Connor. We've heard nothing from you in terms of saying that you disagree with Chief Clement.

I'm asking you today, is there any investigation by the RCMP of Mr. Arar or his family? Will you repudiate the comments Chief Clement has made in the press over the last three days?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I can state categorically to Mr. Arar and Monia Mazigh that there is no RCMP investigation into them or their family, without question.

With respect to the second part of the question, which deals with comments made by a former member of the RCMP who was involved in the investigation, I accept totally the comments and recommendations and findings of Justice O'Connor. There were mistakes that were made. He has recommended that certain actions be taken. We have accepted and put into place many of them, and we will continue to ensure that all of them are implemented as soon as possible.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So, Commissioner, you stand by your statement and you do not accept any comments that Chief Clement made in opposition to it?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Absolutely, I stand by my statement.

I stand by Justice O'Connor's statement. I believe it was balanced. He praised the members who were trying to work under very difficult circumstances and said they did a very thorough job. That is true; he identified that.

But the fact remains that they made mistakes, and those mistakes have been accepted by the RCMP, by me personally. I am committed to correcting those errors and making us a better organization than we were before this matter.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Regarding the leaks—the points that Mr. Ménard raised—in terms of a timeline, when did you become aware that these leaks were occurring and were potentially coming from RCMP sources?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, Justice O'Connor clearly stated in the report that the source of those leaks is unknown. I do not know the source of those leaks.

The matter first came to our attention, I believe—and I could be corrected—when the Arar family itself started to raise concerns about them. When this became public, we were immediately very concerned that these leaks were hurting Mr. Arar and his family. It was for this reason that on our own we initiated an investigation, because those leaks go right to the very heart of what we stand for, to the heart of trust in a society. What happened is deplorable. We deplore it, and that's why we actively undertook an investigation to get to the bottom of this.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Would you appreciate, Commissioner Zaccardelli, that you may be investigating yourself or members of your agency?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, like justice, investigations are blind. We investigate where the evidence and the information takes us, regardless of who it might be. It does not matter who is ultimately found culpable; we will get to that person or people. It does not matter what organization it might be.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I take it the answer is yes, you recognize there is a possibility that it may have been RCMP officers who were leaking this information.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Justice O'Connor has said he doesn't know the source of the leak. That means all possibilities exist. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the RCMP obviously falls within that possibility.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

At any time, did you consider having the investigation conducted by an independent force other than the RCMP?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, no, we did not. Leaks are very unique in a lot of ways, especially these types of leaks, and unfortunately we have done many of them. But that is not something that we considered.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In retrospect, do you think that was a mistake?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I have full confidence in our people to carry out whatever investigation is required to be carried out. We investigate in an impartial and blind way. I can assure you and all Canadians of that, regardless of how the situation might appear.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

At what level was this investigation being conducted within the RCMP, in terms of who was in charge?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

It was directed by the deputy commissioner, my right hand person at headquarters. He's the one who came to me. We discussed it and we said we must do this investigation. He took personal charge of the matter in directing the field people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Comartin, this will have to be your last question.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Commissioner, you are the head of the largest police force in this country. Yet in spite of that and all the RCMP's high qualities, which I recognize, you still have not been able to break the case.

My basic question is, because I think this is what Canadians are asking, why not?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, leaks are probably some of the most difficult investigations to undertake and succeed at.

As is well known, we conducted a number of searches relative to this matter; we carried out certain court orders. We have been challenged by the media on this matter, within their rights.

The results of those searches have been held up in court or are part of a process, and we have not had access to them. That's been going on for quite some time. That is due process.

But we are committed to getting to the bottom of this, if we possibly can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much, sir.

We will now move to the government side for a seven-minute round of questioning.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I do recognize, and I think Canadians recognize, that this was not the only matter before the RCMP. There are a great deal of other ongoing investigations, and it's impossible that the commissioner would know each and every one of them. But at some point it does end up at the top.

One of the things that has been focused on is that the Americans acted on the information from the RCMP. Is it fair to say that they only acted on the information from the RCMP, or did they also have information from other sources?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Justice O'Connor does not come to a definitive conclusion on this point in his report. He does not state categorically what information the Americans acted on, because the Americans did not testify.

They clearly had information from us. That information was false, as I have stated. We know that now from the findings. We tried to correct that information. So there has been no definitive conclusion. I cannot state with certainty what the reasons or grounds were upon which any action was taken by the Americans.