Public Safety Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that everything possible is being done to get to the bottom of the leaks. I also would like to state that nobody is tougher on rogue police officers, or any police officers who commit a crime, than other police officers who investigate them. The proof is in the pudding. We have investigated and arrested members and sent them to prison. That's how seriously we take our work. We do not look at members and say that because they are members they get special treatment. They are subject to the law just like everybody else, because the trust of Canadians, the confidence of Canadians, depends on that.

I want to assure the honourable member and this committee that everything possible will be done. Everybody is being looked at; nobody is excused or will not be looked at in this investigation. No document will not be looked at or examined if we can access it through whatever legal means we can.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Commissioner Zaccardelli, that would have much more credibility if we didn't have the meeting you're having this afternoon with your own department on the way they conducted that investigation in terms of internal improprieties in your department and of letting the time limit run out. That's not a question; that's just a statement.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment on that, because I think it's an important point.

I have two points. I would like to first make the comment that there is a lot of assumption here that the leaks came from the RCMP, and I only directed that--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have made it very clear, Mr. Commissioner, that I had.... Look, I'm as worried as you are about the fact that that person or that group of people were so despicable that they did this, not just because of what they did to Mr. Arar and Dr. Mazigh, but because of what they did to the reputation of the RCMP. I'm not suggesting that at any time I have drawn any definite conclusion as to whether they were the source of the leaks. It could just as easily have been CSIS; it could just as easily have been Foreign Affairs. I understand that.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I would also like to comment on a point that was made about my meeting this afternoon, which will be after I meet with the media. I am meeting with the divisional representative of the force. This is a labour-management issue. We discuss issues. This is a regular meeting to discuss this. Obviously, my appearance here will be part of that discussion, but we're there to discuss issues of interest to the well-being of the force, to make it better, and to deal with those issues. That's what that meeting is about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have only five seconds left, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'll pass.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Thank you.

We'll now go over to the government side.

Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Commissioner, there has been a great deal of discussion about what directions you've been given or haven't been given on talking to the media and so on. Canadians heard a great deal in the last few days about how at the solemn event that was held on the Hill this last weekend you and the current minister didn't speak with each other and had no contact, and I'm sure Canadians may be surprised to hear what you just said a few minutes ago, that in fact you did have a conversation and shook hands, however briefly, and also met the minister's wife. The point is that not everything you hear or see is actually factually true. There are opportunities to straighten that record, and I'm pleased that you did so here today.

Having said that, one of my concerns, as the honourable member across was discussing, is about letting Canadians know when you knew what was wrong in this whole affair and straightening it out. When did you let the political body in Ottawa know that there had been errors made and it may have resulted in what happened to Mr. Arar? How soon did that occur?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, as you can imagine, when the matter surfaced, government agencies, the Privy Council Office, everybody was concerned about these things, because they are serious issues and we all take them very seriously. Of course, this led to us starting to provide briefings. As soon as the matter started to become very public and people were concerned, everybody started to provide information, working up briefing notes and so on, and getting the information together. Some of it took a long time to get. It wasn't easy. It's in different parts of the country with different agencies, so the coordination of that took a long time.

It was almost immediately that we started preparing this information. As you can imagine, ministers are concerned. The PCO, bureaucrats, we all wanted to know. I wanted to know what was going on, so it was almost immediately that the machinery in government and the departments kicked into place to come to the bottom of what took place. So the briefings started. Justice O'Connor refers to that.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

But in actual time, approximate dates, when would the minister who you reported to in those days have been made aware that there may have been some errors made in our sharing of wrong information?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I could get the dates. I don't have the right dates, but I do know that briefings and timelines started to be prepared for him as the matter came up, and we started providing that information.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

When my friend says that you could have corrected the public record, the political people could have also corrected that public record at an earlier date.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

We started providing the information as best we could.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

It seems that the other concern is what you may or may not have been directed to do in the last eight days. I would fail to see what that has to do with what we're looking at today. We're trying to determine what went wrong and how to fix it going forward.

One of the other issues dealing with that was the comment earlier about the sharing of information. As I read it, sections 6 through 12 of the report deal with the sharing of information. I don't think there has ever been a suggestion from Mr. Justice O'Connor that we shouldn't continue to share information of a criminal or intelligence nature, but where there may have been a problem was with how it was shared. Can you tell us if those issues have been resolved?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, that is absolutely correct. Justice O'Connor makes it very clear that the sharing of information is vital to our safety and security. There are rules and regulations that govern that in Canada and outside of Canada. We accept Justice O'Connors' findings that in the context of 9/11, under such difficult circumstances, mistakes were made in how some of that information was classified, with the tragic consequence for Mr. Arar, as I've stated and we've discussed. We are committed, using Justice O'Connor's recommendations, to correct and improve on that. We've already started doing that. We will continue to do that until it is completed.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

A point of order, Chair.

I just wanted to point out that there have been two comments made by my colleagues across. They are citing recommendations 6 to 10. I wanted to point out to them section 2.6, since it's been mentioned twice by my colleagues. I've given the information to Mr. Hawn. It cites very clearly:

Project A-O Canada provided information to American agencies in a manner that contravened RCMP policies requiring that information be screened for relevance, reliability and personal information....

It's very clear, Mr. Chairman, that we are dealing here with a breach of the protocols of the policies, and that was indeed the nature of my question. I would not want to allow my colleagues to be confined to only recommendations 6 and 10, when in fact chapter 2 talks about it abundantly and plentifully, as the commissioner suggested.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes. I think you could have done that when it was your turn, which would have been next.

We will now go to the second round of questioning.

Mr. Bevilacqua, go ahead, please.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Commissioner, first of all, let me express to you my gratitude for your appearance here today and for offering your perspective on this very important issue of not only national importance but indeed international importance.

You've offered your apology, which speaks to the fact that you do in fact take this issue extremely seriously.

We've covered all sorts of ground here in this meeting, from leaks to timelines, your own personal involvement, the personnel challenges, and training issues that have arisen, whether or not there was political direction in this case, Justice O'Connor's report, his recommendations, the exchange of international information, and the problems that sometimes arise as a result of that.

I also took note that there's been a shift in police culture as a result of September 11, not only in this country but in fact internationally. There has been clarification as well that there is no investigation of the Arar family taking place.

The point I want to focus on is that in fact mistakes were made, and when mistakes are made, hopefully lessons are learned.

Commissioner, you, as an individual who has served this country and indeed the RCMP for over 36 years, would clearly understand that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is an institution in our country. It is an organization that we as Canadians look to. It exercises a very important role in our civil society. What assurances can you, as commissioner, provide the Canadian public, who may in fact be viewing the committee hearings, that these errors will not repeat themselves and that in fact the RCMP can fulfill its responsibilities into the future?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, with respect to reassuring Canadians, I can state categorically that we have looked at this report and we have accepted without question the recommendations. We in fact, long before the report came out, were dealing with a number of the recommendations because we ourselves saw the need to strengthen and change some of the issues related to centralization and sharing of information.

We've made mistakes in the past, but this is a difficult business that we're in, as I stated in my statement, and we are committed to learning from this. We have learned. We are doing a number of things to improve the quality and the competency of our people. We believe fundamentally in Canadian values and the values of the RCMP, and we hold people to high standards because Canadians expect us to operate at that level. I can assure Canadians that the only thing we are concerned about now is moving ahead, learning from our mistakes, accepting those recommendations, and moving forward.

That's my commitment. I know that is the commitment of every man and woman in the RCMP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Mr. Bevilacqua.

We will now move over to the Bloc.

Ms. Bonsant, go ahead, please.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, I listened to Mr. Comartin when he was speaking about the reputation of the RCMP. I think that in the 1970s, you have also succeeded to making mistakes. Everybody will remember the explosives placed everywhere and the FLQ. At that time a committee was created. In 2001, you were given back exactly what you had in 1970 and the situation has repeated itself.

What assurance can I get that in five or ten years from now, these events will not occur again given that you don't change your attitude? How can I be sure, as a Quebecker, as a human being, that the same mistake will not be repeated year after year, in the next 10, 20 or 30 years? I am very interested in your answer to that question.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank Mrs. Bonsant for her question. She said that we received a new mandate following 9/11. As I tried to explain earlier, our mandate did not change after 9/11 but it was changed after the 1970s. Justice MacDonald's report itself clearly mentioned that the RCMP had an important role to play in criminal investigations.

What are we doing today? What have we been doing since September 11? We have simply continued to fulfill our mandate. There have been some legislative changes to make a crime of certain actions. Parliament has passed new laws. If a crime is committed, we must investigate. This is what we did. Our mandate has not changed. The agency which was created after the MacDonald Inquiry Commission still exists and this won't change. We work very well with it. Our mandate is still the same. We launch an investigation only if a crime has been committed. A terrorist act is a crime. If a bomb explodes here or in another country, a policy agency must investigate. We need the help of intelligence agencies and this is what occurs. This cooperation must exist.

As I said earlier,who has investigated the criminal acts, the crimes committed by extremists in Bali, Madrid and in England? It was the local police, the national police. This is what we do and this is what we shall continue to do. We are going to protect Canadians. Our mandate has not been changed. Laws have been passed. If Parliament passes a law, we must enforce it. This is the only thing that has changed; not our mandate.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I don't find it very reassuring. I know that you have a mandate, that laws have been passed, but if I was citizen listening to you, how could you reassure me and convince me that the RCMP will not falsify things again? People trust you because you represent government and you represent a country. I am not accusing you, but you seem to use your power to frighten some people.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, our activities are supervised on various levels and particularly by this parliamentary Committee. You have been elected and I must appear before you to answer your questions. As you know, the second part of Justice O'Connor's report will be released in a couple of months. In that part, Justice O'Connor will suggest what type of committee or organization should supervise or help the RCMP to fulfill its mandate which is to deal with crime, which relates to national security. I expect him to make certain recommendations.

When I appeared before Justice O'Connor, I clearly said that I would accept his recommendations with no questions even if I did not know them yet. Other committees, other organizations in our country have access to what we are doing, when we are doing it. They can review all our files. Lastly, there are Canadian courts and Parliament. There are several ways to verify what we are doing, when we are doing it and how we are doing it.