Public Safety Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I want to correct something, as far as the information I have is concerned. In fact, I was the one who approached my parliamentary secretary to communicate with the chair and then to members of the committee the opportunity to present. I did not actually receive from this committee, though I'm sure it would have been coming, a demand or a request. I think we all assumed that this would be the primary item of attention, and I initiated that request.

I also received from Commissioner Zaccardelli his very clear intention. He informed me--I did not inform him--that he would be appearing before the media and any other venue once he and his officials had contemplated the report and had done the work they needed to do to make a responsible response to that report. He informed me that he would be doing that.

Further, if I can add to that, the development of this particular report and this investigation were some two and a half years in the making. I stand to be corrected, but some 65,000 documents were presented and there were more than 100 witnesses. Just the report that is available here is some quarter of a million words, 1,400 pages, and covers a variety of agencies.

For the record, Mr. Chairman, as I already indicated, within 24 hours of receipt of that report, which I received at the same time everybody else did, we were already moving on some of the recommendations. We indicated very clearly, out of respect for the huge amount of work that was done, that we needed time to digest this report, to look into it, to make sure we could move ahead with the recommendations.

I appreciate the fact that even though I was ready on Tuesday--I believe Commissioner Zaccardelli was also ready--we know that this good committee had to constitute itself, had to elect its chair, and had to do some work. So even though we were ready on Tuesday, you were here on Thursday. And I think that was very expeditious.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Minister, there are two elements. One is that you didn't answer the question of why all media requests that came into the RCMP were directed to your office. Perhaps you could comment on that.

Before you do, you said that Commissioner Zaccardelli informed you that he would be appearing in front of this committee and discussed that with you. Commissioner Zaccardelli has just finished telling this committee that he didn't have conversations with you about these matters and how he was going to be handling this issue.

I'm wondering as well if you could talk about any written communications you would have received from the commissioner in the last nine days and any discussions you would have had with respect to handling this, both in front of the committee and with the media.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Chair, with all due respect, I think Mr. Holland has not really properly addressed what the context of the conversation was with the commissioner. I think the commissioner said he had a number of conversations with the minister. He wasn't prepared to tell us exactly what all those conversations were about. I don't think that at any time for a minute has there been a difference in what has been said.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I appreciate the offer of an answer from the member opposite, but I'm interested in answers--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'll answer the question. I appreciate the intervention, thank you.

I realize there's a lot of information coming at Mr. Holland in a short period of time and that's not always easy to assimilate in a meeting like this. I respect his sincerity, but I caught on television, live, some of Commissioner Zaccardelli's report. I heard him say that he and I talked on Wednesday. It's a fact that we met, and then he couldn't remember if it was Thursday or Friday--it was Friday--and we talked again on Sunday.

So I'm not sure why Mr. Holland--I'm sure it's an honest mistake on his part--is trying to characterize that no discussion had taken place, but we did in fact meet and we talked.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

That's correct. He did acknowledge that you met and talked, but the question I asked--and perhaps you could answer this question. Again, there are two questions. You still haven't answered why media requests were directed to your office instead of the commissioner's.

Secondly, you didn't answer the question, and neither did Commissioner Zaccardelli really, about what specifically you talked about, whether or not you received any communication from Mr. Zaccardelli expressing a desire to speak on this issue, whether or not you directed Mr. Zaccardelli on how he should be interacting with the media. These were all things he was very evasive on. I'm wondering if you could be more direct in telling us, specifically, in those conversations and meetings that you had with Mr. Zaccardelli in the last nine days, when you had the opportunity to talk to him, was his interaction with the media part of those discussions, how he was to relate, and did he in fact write to you at any point in time expressing a desire to communicate or to speak earlier?

Lastly, did he ever at any point offer his resignation to you?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I think there were five, six, seven questions there. I'll try to recap them all, if I may.

Again, I guess it's a matter of perception. I listened to and I did hear a good part of Commissioner Zaccardelli's testimony here and I heard him say very clearly, and I can concur, that he did not receive political direction that he wasn't to be talking to the media or to others. He certainly didn't get it from me and he certainly didn't get it from anywhere else.

I'll repeat again, he informed me that at the time when they had done the necessary review, he would be and he wanted to be talking publicly about this matter. I don't know how much clearer we can be on that. Mr. Holland seems to be one of the--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I think you could be clearer by answering another couple of questions, and this one I will ask now for the fourth time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have about five seconds left and I've--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Five seconds, perhaps, to ask the fourth question for the fourth time. Why were all media requests directed to the commissioner redirected to your office?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I have no idea why certain offices direct certain questions somewhere. I do know that when media phone around when they're questioning something, they will phone a variety of offices and agencies. The hard-working ones will do that. Are you telling me that every media request that came to the RCMP went to my office? I don't know that to be true, and I would certainly want you to check your facts on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Monsieur Ménard, for seven minutes, please.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for coming before us.

You said that you accept the 23 recommendations. I understand that it includes recommendation 22 which states:

The Government of Canada should register a formal objection with the Governments of the United States and Syria concerning their treatment of Mr. Arar and Canadian officials involved with his case.

Are you going to register a formal objection?

I see you nodding your head, but your answer has to be recorded. Are you answering yes?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes. I already made a comment about it. I sent a communication to Michael Chertoff, the Secretary of State for Homeland Security in the United States. I told him that I was hoping that he would cancel the look-outs for Mr. Arar and his family as we did ourselves.

We have also said that we would follow the process suggested by Justice O'Connor in recommendation 22. My colleague the Minister for Foreign Affairs could tell you the exact steps.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Minister, we have learned this morning that Commissioner Zaccardelli, when Mr. Arar was sent to Syria, did ask for the file so that he could study it thoroughly himself and that he came rapidly to the conclusion that Mr. Arar was innocent and should not have been sent to Syria.

He then asked that the wrong information conveyed to the Americans, and that seemed to have contributed to his removal to Syria, be corrected. I think that it is about all that was done. Mr. Arar was kept in prison for close to another year. During a very long period before the release of the report several Canadians were convinced that he probably had links with terrorist groups.

Do you think that what was done to correct that mistake was sufficient in the circumstances? Should we not have asked more forcefully the Americans if they had other reasons to send Mr. Arar to a Syrian jail? If they had other reasons it would have been concerning a Canadian citizen which was under investigation in Canada which should have interested us. Do you consider that it was sufficient to correct the wrong information to repair the harm caused to Mr. Arar?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I do not know why the previous government did not ask the very important questions raised by my hon. colleague. It is not my responsibility to repair the mistakes made by the previous government. However, as the new Government of Canada, we shall respect all the recommendations made by Justice O'Connor.

Sir, your questions are very important. Justice O'Connor mentioned that there were problems in the government at the time. He underlined that the government could not answer in one voice while Mr. Arar was imprisoned. It is regrettable. They might submit their excuses, but I do not know. This was a very serious situation. I do not know why they didn't ask the questions that you have raised.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Precisely, the fact that they did not ask the right questions... I suppose that you are talking about Commissioner Zaccardelli and that when you speak about the government, you talk about the American government, isn't it?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

No, I am talking about the Government of Canada. Justice O'Connor said very clearly that the government did not raise the important questions. He said that the previous government did not speak with one voice to Syrian authorities.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

The previous government didn't know that the RCMP Commissioner thought that Mr. Arar was innocent because that information was never conveyed. For that reason, they couldn't ask more questions.

Do you believe that we should have done more than simply correct the false information given to the Americans and that probably led them to send Mr. Arar to Syria, a country where, according to every information available, people suspected of terrorism are tortured?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Justice O'Connor has said that the RCMP and other security agencies did send corrected information to the American authorities asking them to take it into account. He also said that it was not enough. Of course, they sent that information, but it was not enough. This is why it is important to implement all the recommendations.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Does that finding undermine your confidence in Commissioner Zaccardelli?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chairman, there is something interesting in this report. It says that there were a lot of mistakes in the information provided. It even said on page 225 that a memo to Commissioner Zaccardelli contained informations that were not accurate.

This is the tragedy in that whole matter! Much information was not accurate. It is possible that several civil servants made decisions that were the wrong ones. This is why there is a report with recommendations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. We're a little overtime on that round from the Bloc Québécois.

We'll now move to Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I'm going to ask you three questions. Again, for brevity of time, would you hold until I've finished each one of them for your answer.

First, your new government has taken exactly the same position as the old government and refused, up to this point, to apologize to Mr. Arar and his family, in spite of a specific recommendation by Justice O'Connor that you not take a legalistic approach to dealing with Mr. Arar and the whole issue of compensation. I'm asking you why you haven't apologized. That's the first question.

Second, as of yesterday your new government has taken the same position as the old government: that you're going to pursue the lawsuit Justice O'Connor has been forced to bring with regard to claims of information not being disclosed for national security reasons. Had that litigation not been proceeding, this report would have been we don't know how much longer. So I'm asking you why you have taken that position.

Third, your new government, like the old government, has still not brought forth a piece of legislation for parliamentary oversight of our intelligence services, and my question is why not.