Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Deacon  Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)
Robert Lesser  Director General, Operations, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)
Michael Baker  Director General, Preparedness and Recovery, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)
David Neville  Director, Disaster Financial Assistance and Preparedness Programs, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)
Suki Wong  Deputy Director General, Critical Infrastructure Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)
Tracy Thiessen  Director General, Coordination, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)
Philip Rosen  Committee Researcher

9:45 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

May I add just a couple of comments, Mr. Chair?

With respect to the United States, I should mention that we have a liaison officer posted down in the Department of Homeland Security in Washington. That has proven to be a very beneficial and productive arrangement for us, and I think for our American colleagues as well. It's one of the ways we are working with the United States.

On the issue of our “reviewing”--to use that word--municipal plans, we don't review them. I think I was suggesting that we are as aware of them as we can be, but certainly we're not reviewing or approving. As Mr. Lesser said, that's a question of provincial responsibility.

Mr. Chair, if I could correct a statement I made earlier, I said the order in council procedure for disaster financial assistance arrangements would no longer be in place. That was incorrect. It would remain.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

As a brief point in addition to what Mr. Hawn asked, are you aware of whether there's a plan here on Parliament Hill to deal with emergencies?

9:45 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

I have to say I'm not, but I just a heard a yes from Mr. Lesser.

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

Robert Lesser

Yes, there is the parliamentary precinct plan that's ongoing. Kevin Vickers, I believe, on the House of Commons side, is dealing with that. I believe yesterday there was a meeting with Diane MacLaren and Mr. Vickers on that.

There are two different branches within the department: the police and law enforcement, which have RCMP responsibility, and ourselves, who have emergency management. So we're getting together to make sure that continuity of constitutional government plans, business continuity plans, and the parliamentary precinct plans are aligned.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Something else the committee may want to consider at a future point is a visit to the Government Operations Centre. It may help us in understanding what's happening and what's going on.

9:50 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

You'd be most welcome, Mr. Chair.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

We'll now move to the second round of questions. These will be five minutes in length.

Mr. Holland, you can lead off.

October 5th, 2006 / 9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of you for coming today.

I have a couple of questions. I'm going to break this into two parts. One is with respect to the Government Operations Centre that was established by then Minister McLellan. Could you talk to us a little bit about the operations of the Government Operations Centre, what its functions are, how its functions are activated, how it's resourced, how it interacts with other agencies, and also where it's located? I ask that because I think it might be valuable for this committee to visit that facility, and I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

9:50 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

Robert Lesser

I'll start off with the visit.

When we became a new department, we inherited what was there. That didn't meet anybody's needs, so we just totally destroyed it. We have a temporary ops centre that's still there, but early November would probably be a great time to come back. You're certainly welcome to tour that once we get rid of the construction helmets and those kinds of things.

As for what it does, there are a number of main functions. The first one is a monitoring and reporting function. As I mentioned before, there are different areas that it monitors for, and they're fairly wide. It's much more than for emergencies, it's for public safety writ large, if you will. Then there are a number of kinds of products that it will report on. There's one that we call an information bulletin, and it primarily goes to our minister, the minister's staff, and the Privy Council Office, to give them a heads-up. It contains unconfirmed, uncorroborated information, and within thirty minutes we'll come back with what we call a notification. That then comes with accredited and, as best we can, certified information as to what may be occurring.

Depending on that, in the other areas that we have, we gather situational awareness. It's really that whole thing to develop, in more military terms, a common operating picture. With that kind of information, we then take a look at doing a risk assessment. We don't do threat assessments. Those are done by CSIS, the RCMP, DND, etc. We do a risk assessment that asks the questions, “What do we care? What does this mean? And if it does mean something, what do we do? Is there a particular plan that's already in place that we implement, or do we have to develop something to respond specifically to this?” There will be an immediate action plan if we don't have a plan to do that.

Our last function is operations coordination, which is done at the strategic level, which is different from the very pointy end, the tactical level or, say, the mid-level operational level. Within the operations centre right now, the director of the operations centre is from the Canadian Forces. We have a planner from the Canadian Forces who is responsible for their pandemic plan, so he's a highly trained planner. And we are integrating our planning system with the military planning system. We're finding a lot of that is then in line with the 2010 planning for the Olympics. We have former RCMP and CSIS members within the entire Government Operations Centre who look at situational awareness, risk assessment, planning, as I talked about, and ops coordination.

When something happens, if it's very small and very quick.... There are a number of times that you've probably read about in the papers when there are people who are on aircraft who are on the American no-fly list. Sometimes it's required that either Canadians or Americans under NORAD will scramble jets to do protection on that, and then they go through a series of checks to find out whether or not they can confirm a risk or deny a risk. We are immediately involved with five key departments in terms of determining the risk. If there was ever an opportunity or the occasion when it was decided at the highest levels that the aircraft would have to be shot down, we'd be involved in the consequence management of that, notifying the provinces and providing the assistance that would be needed.

Some events will happen in less than twenty minutes. Other events are fairly long-term. Our role with the repatriation of the Lebanese citizens took about three or four weeks. By and large, that was a fairly simple thing for us as the interlocutors between Foreign Affairs Canada and the provinces and the local municipalities, like Montreal. Certainly Quebec did an excellent job of looking after returning citizens for the first 72 hours. Ontario and the City of Ottawa equally did some excellent work there. So we would also perform that liaison function, that situational awareness, that passing of that kind of information.

As an event grows for us to level two and then level three, simplistically we'd do more of the same, but we'd bring in people from other departments and agencies. We see ourselves as simply the experts in the process, the emergency response process. We are not experts, nor do we intend to be experts. If there was a radiological threat or a biological threat or a national security threat, we'd bring in the experts from the areas that have that expertise and they would fit into the planning process, the risk assessment process, and the ops coordination process, and they would be very key in that one.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Where is the facility located, or where is it going to be located?

9:55 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

Robert Lesser

It's the Jackson Building, at Bank Street and Slater Street.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I just put that out, Mr. Chairman, because it may be valuable. I know the committee is very busy, but it sounds to me like it's a facility that would be well worth the committee's time to visit. But I'll leave that for discussion for another time.

If I could, I just want to talk about where we're going. I think I have a good grasp on what the legislation is before us, but where do you see us—

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

This will be your final question, by the way.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Sure. That sounds good.

I came from the municipality of Pickering, where I was a councillor for seven years, and also from the region of Durham.

In the region of Durham, we have two large nuclear facilities, and we ran a lot of emergency preparedness drills around them. And when we had local emergencies, we ran local operations centres and saw firsthand how effectively they worked on the ground.

I understood very clearly, at that point in time, the relationship that existed between municipalities and the provinces in developing those plans. And I well understand the need for the federal government to monitor the level of preparedness of provinces and municipalities for potential emergencies, to ensure that they're properly resourced, and to understand where they are going to be.

But where are we heading? I just say that in this context. If we have three levels of government, at a certain point, if the federal government takes too much of a lead, do we risk becoming too involved and therefore actually slow down the response process?

How do we ensure, in the municipalities, in particular, which are the first responders and the ones closest to the ground in understanding the situation, that we don't move to a situation where, in trying to be helpful from a federal context, we create problems for them in terms of their response time, because we start creating an overly bureaucratic situation?

9:55 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

Perhaps, first, as a general observation, the federal government only provides assistance in actual events when we're requested to do so. It does start, as you say, at the local level, and it works up to the provincial level. If there's an identified need from the province, a request will be made, and assistance will be provided as appropriate.

We do have ongoing discussions with provincial governments to talk about the management of the overall situation nationally. Perhaps I can ask Tracy Thiessen to talk a little bit about that.

We have a senior officials' committee responsible for emergency management, for example, that is co-chaired by the senior assistant deputy minister in our department and a provincial colleague. They have been meeting for some time now.

Tracy, do you want to talk a little about that relationship?

9:55 a.m.

Director General, Coordination, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

Tracy Thiessen

Thank you.

Our FPT for emergency management is actually very active in this country.

Ministers last met in January 2005 and elaborated an action plan that includes work in a variety of areas, including emergency response, disaster recovery assistance programs, a national mitigation strategy, training and exercising, public alerting, and finally, a critical infrastructure protection strategy.

Ministers plan to meet again sometime in December, or perhaps in January. To support them, deputy ministers have met face to face twice since then and have had a variety of teleconferences, and senior officials continue their work.

So through these deliberations, we continue to develop the relationship with the provinces and the territories, which directly benefits municipalities.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

We'll now move to the Bloc Quebecois.

Monsieur Ménard.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

There is now a tendency, in industrialized countries, to develop an expertise in some types of responses to emergencies. Canada is a good example with a team that can supply very large quantities of drinking water, and this, very rapidly. Often, following a disaster, particularly in developing countries, the population is left with no source of drinking water. It is a major cause of illnesses.

I know that the French have set up a response team to intervene after an earthquake, when many people are still under the rubble, in order to rescue them rapidly. They have medical doctors who can go there rapidly and operate on the spot.

However, I suppose that there are other countries that also have that expertise. I know that Japan also has a specific expertise in earthquake response. Is there someone in your department who follows those developments in the world so that we could call on those resources if needed or we might offer ours if they could be useful somewhere else?

10 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

I'm afraid I'll have to commit to get back to you with further information on that.

Certainly we do have relationships, not only with the United States but with other countries.

The band strength here right now isn't such that I'm able to respond directly to your question. We do have arrangements here in Canada, though. There is search and rescue, for example.

I don't know, Bob, if you wanted to make a couple of comments on some of the things we do and that other countries have been interested in, in the past.

10 a.m.

Director General, Operations, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

Robert Lesser

Earlier, I think one of your references, Mr. Chair, was to the urban search and rescue capacity. I believe there are five teams across the country. A lot of the funding has been federal, but there are municipal and local resources.

There is an agreement with the funding and training that they will assist in national events. We saw in Katrina that the urban search and rescue team from British Columbia was sent down to Louisiana to provide some assistance. It was backed up then by the Calgary search and rescue team in case there was something that happened in British Columbia.

Of course, the Canadian Forces have the DART team. If we needed a large amount of assistance that was outside the Canadian capacity to provide, our door would be right to Foreign Affairs Canada, and we'd look to them to go into the international community with the needs that the province would have identified.

There is already at Foreign Affairs and through CIDA a database of different kinds of assistance that is available worldwide that they can call upon, and we are starting to build as well, in the very early stages, a national inventory of resources. In working with our provincial colleagues, though, especially for Katrina, the preference they indicated to us was for them not to continually update a database of potential resources within each province because it changes continually and it may or may not be available when you need it. Their preference was for us federally, if we needed help, to identify what it was that we needed and then they would do a staff check to see if it was available.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I have a feeling that you never heard about that French team before, but maybe you should get some information about it. It is operational and it has intervened quite often in the Third World. However, I do not believe that we have many problems with earthquakes in Canada. In any case, our architects are designing buildings that can generally resist to the earthquakes we do have.

Nevertheless, I would like to know the extent of your knowledge. Does any one of you know of the Institute Armand-Frappier?

10 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

It appears not, Mr. Chairman.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I understand that there is a tendency to look towards the English world but sometimes you might find in the French-speaking world some institutions that have as much expertise in very specific areas like it is the case of the French in the field of research. The Institute Armand-Frappier is located in Laval and its operations can be sustained over a long period, it has water and oxygen reserves and the capacity to produce vaccines. It has relationships with other international institutions. We shall go to visit it. It is not far from Ottawa. It is only a two hours' drive.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'm not sure we're going to get all of these visits in. I think this bill is supposed to be referred back to the House in a timely fashion.

Mr. Deacon.

10 a.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)

James Deacon

Just to comment on best practices, clearly we want to cast our net as broadly as we can in terms of best practices and gaining knowledge from any other jurisdictions' arrangements, institutes, or centres of knowledge. I would take that as self-evident.

One thing I should mention in this context is that we do have our relationship with non-governmental organizations like the Red Cross that are operating abroad, and we benefit from their experience in our relationship. In addition, the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade has a committee of international non-governmental organizations, and working with them and through them on that we often do get information about other countries' practices and arrangements and what can work best and what we might consider here.