Public Safety Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2006

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That's why I asked if you tried to find out why he had been removed to Syria.

[Alan Kessel]

Clearly there was a discussion between the departments to determine if there was something we should be aware of with respect to Mr. Arar. The subsequent discussions between the various departments did reveal that there were concerns on the part of the RCMP, and that was something, as is mentioned in the report of Mr. O'Connor--and this goes back to the discussion, which I would certainly like Mr. Desjardins to get to--

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I have seven minutes to obtain from the witnesses answers to questions which, to my mind, can be easily answered.

You stated that the RCMP had some concerns. What concerns are you referring to?

I'm sorry to rush you. This isn't like a court of law or a commission of inquiry. I only have seven minutes allotted to me.

What specific concerns did the RCMP have?

[Alan Kessel]

I'm glad you mentioned that this is not a commission, because quite frankly, we have massive amounts of documentation from the commission.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I've read the commission's findings. That's why I'm not asking you any questions that have been answered in Justice O'Connor's report.

What specific concerns did the RCMP have?

[Alan Kessel]

The express concern that Justice O'Connor indicated was that while the RCMP had a right to speak to U.S. officials, and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade was dealing with U.S. officials on consular matters, those two roads never met in Canada. So the RCMP officials and the Department of Foreign Affairs officials had not spoken to each other at that point, during the early stages of Mr. Arar's detention in New York, and that is exactly the issue of why there was a recommendation and, in fact, the only process that we have to guide us at this point.

As the government has indicated it would fulfill the recommendations, we must look at the recommendations that Mr. Justice O'Connor has put forward and try to respond to them. And the exact issue of communication that you've now raised again--and I appreciate it because Mr. Holland also raised it--is key to resolving this problem.

I'm now going to ask Mr. Desjardins if he would speak to the issue of communication between departments and what he's doing about it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Robert Desjardins, Director General, Consular Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs]

I'd be happy to speak to that issue.

First of all, before Mr. Justice O'Connor's report was released, we had already taking clear, concrete steps to improve communications between Foreign Affairs and International Trade . . .

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Again, would you kindly answer my question. You were in contact with the RCMP, which conveyed some concerns to you. Correct? I'd like to know if someone inquired as to the reason why Mr. Arar was removed from Syria.

From an outsider's perspective, it seems obvious that if someone is removed to Syria, it is because that person is considered to be a terrorist or a member of a terrorist organization and the fate that awaits him is clear. I understand that Foreign Affairs was aware of these facts. Therefore, answer me this: did you inquire as to the reasons why Mr. Arar was removed to Syria?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Ménard, you'll have to pose your question, and we'll have to get a brief response.

[Robert Desjardins]

The short answer . . .

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Once again, you can see how useful the measures I suggested would be, once we vote on . . . I'm certain that I didn't take any longer than a minute and a half to put my questions, but I received non answers for six and a half minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

If there's no response, we'll go over to the government side.

[Robert Desjardins]

To answer your question, I cannot discuss the RCMP's concerns. I represent the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and I can tell you what steps we took. I can't tell you what the RCMP did, what it was thinking, or what it wanted to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn for seven minutes, please.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not sure we're ever going to get answers to the kinds of things that are being asked across the way, and I don't dispute that they're good questions, but I have a couple of questions that are a little bit looking back and a little bit looking forward--the Monterrey Protocol that you talked about, for example. Candidly, are there holes in that? It's a pretty brief two-letter exchange between the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the U.S. Was the object of that conversation satisfying, in your view?

[Alan Kessel]

You know, you've basically hit the nail on the head here. We're dealing with an incredibly difficult situation in which the U.S. has its views on its defence counter-terrorism strategy and Canada has an obligation to protect its citizens. This unprecedented approach, which Minister Graham together with his counterpart, Colin Powell, entered into, started a process that the current government has continued.

I don't think there's anything more powerful than the Prime Minister of Canada picking up the phone and speaking to the President of the United States to say, “This is a problem; it concerns me, it should concern you, and we should continue to fix it”, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, speaking to his counterpart, Condoleezza Rice, saying, “My Prime Minister has told this to your President; I think we're all in the same book here and we need to make sure this doesn't happen again.” And what we need is an expression of understanding and willingness to make sure this doesn't happen again, from the President of the United to the Prime Minister of Canada and from the Secretary of State to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Quite frankly, in the diplomatic world, I don't know anything stronger than that.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We have millions of Canadians with dual citizenship. Mr. Arar--Syria and Canada--was just one example of that dual citizenship situation.

Justice O'Connor's recommendation 17 talked about taking steps necessary to insist that Canadians' consular rights be respected. I know it's difficult to tell Syria or another country who has rights under its own laws and what to do, but we have, by some reports, 2.5 million to 4 million Canadians with dual citizenship. What are we doing proactively to try to establish the access to Canadian rights with all the countries with which Canadians hold dual citizenship, including Syria?

[Alan Kessel]

This is the other issue that I think Mr. Justice O'Connor was quite clear on. He said this is a foggy area of international law. It's a new thing. The world has really changed in the past 30 years, 40 years, 50 years. We've seen massive movements of people around the world. Canada, like many other countries, has a law that permits you to retain the citizenship of your former country. Even were you to remove that, some would say, some countries would still consider you to be their citizen, because under their law you may be.

So there's a certain limited amount of coercion that the Government of Canada can do. If you're a Canadian living in Canada but you happen to be Irish and you happen to have a relationship with the law for some reason, we would just treat you as a Canadian going through the legal process. Maybe the Irish would come to us and say, “Hang on a minute, this guy's Irish and we're going to insist on his being Irish”, and we'd say, “Good, he's Irish, but he's still going to go through the legal system.” That's just one example.

The fact is that many countries are struggling with the concept of dual nationality, predominant residence--who are you?--where there are half-and-half citizenships. The reality is that we haven't concluded that. This is something that the international community is going to have to agree to.

The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations was done at a time when the numbers of dual nationals were minimal. Maybe one of the things to look at down the road is whether that or other international treaties have to look at the reality of dual nationals in a changing world where migration is a factor of life.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific on that. It's a very unspecific topic right now.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Are we addressing that? Are we trying to address that through follow-on conventions and so on? Canada is not the only country faced with this.

[Alan Kessel]

No.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Is there any proactive process going on to address it?

[Robert Desjardins]

From a legal perspective at this juncture, no. Work on international conventions is extremely complex and difficult, but we do have exchanges regularly with like-minded countries and countries that find themselves in the same situation as we find ourselves in dealing with an increasingly large segment of our population that does have another nationality.

It's very practical. It's very pragmatic. As Mr. Kessel mentioned, where we do have problems, it has to do with the legal framework of those countries. So individually or collectively or in small groups, we have to try to find measures of accommodation so that we do gain access to our citizens directly or indirectly when they need it. We have to find ways not to circumvent other countries' legal frameworks, but to work within them to make sure we can assume the responsibility that we have for our own citizens. Some pragmatic, concrete work is taking place between us and like-minded countries like Australia, New Zealand, and the U.K.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Have we done any prioritizing? I don't know how many countries Canadians hold dual citizenship with, but there are some that would be problematic, like Syria. Some would be less problematic, like Australia. Have we done anything about prioritizing which we consider the biggest threats to Canadians if they get caught in a situation like Maher Arar and have we started with those?

[Robert Desjardins]

As Mr. Kessel mentioned, we know those countries where, for instance, it's illegal to acquire another nationality. They exist. We know them, and we see how best to deal with those situations. It's also important to note that we are doing considerable work informing Canadians of their obligations and the care that they need to take.

For instance, in the passport, in the book itself, there is an observation about dual nationality. We have a website, voyage.gc.ca, that receives 4 million visits a year, where that information on dual nationality is clearly stated for Canadians. We use every opportunity to remind people who have another nationality or who may have another nationality to be very mindful of the precautions they need to take when travelling to their country of original nationality.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Just a brief question, Mr. Hawn.