Public Safety Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll now move to our second round, which is five minutes of questions and answers.

Mr. Alghabra, please.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner Zaccardelli, thank you for coming.

I want to try to briefly summarize what's going on.

Justice O'Connor's report describing a massive failure and violation of RCMP protocols in conveying false information to the American law agencies came out on September 18. Canadians were eagerly waiting to hear from you. It took ten days for you to come to this committee to give us your reaction. You said--it was very clear, not imprecise, not impressions--you had found out in 2002 about sharing misinformation with the Americans, that you tried to correct it, and that you shared it with ministers at the time.

I should also mention that between the 18th and the 28th, before your arrival at this committee, Minister Day was firm in his support of your office. In fact, there were reports that the PMO was not so confident at the time, and then they eventually conversed and stood together in supporting what you had done and said.

After your testimony, where you reported you shared that information in 2002 with the ministers at the time, three former ministers have come to this committee and told us they were never informed by you.

Then somehow, yesterday, you gave a speech to the Economic Club, clarifying these mistakes. By the way, I find that very interesting, because at the time--on the 28th--you said the reason you had not spoken publicly was because you thought this committee was the only proper forum to report to Canadians what you had done and hadn't done and what your responsibilities are. Yet yesterday you chose to make those statements in front of the Economic Club instead of this committee.

Having said that, today you told us you were forthcoming about meetings with Minister Day, even though it took a lot of effort from this committee to get some type of description from you at the time about whether you had any political meetings, or any meetings, with Minister Day. Now, today, you told us you met with Minister Day.

Could you please tell us when you met with Minister Day and who was present at the meeting?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Okay. Thank you very much, sir, for the questions.

Just on your last point, yes, at the last hearing on the 28th, I was not as forthcoming about explaining my meetings. The reason I couldn't do that was because I hadn't spoken to Minister Day. I thought it was proper to ask permission and talk to him about whether I could give evidence or speak about those discussions. That's why I didn't do it then. Since the 28th, I have talked to Minister Day and he said yes, go ahead and explain that. So I will explain.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

That's an interesting point. So you are admitting that Minister Day had some influence on how you testified and your statement. It's a very relevant point, and I'm glad you clarified it.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Political interference.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can you answer my question, please?

I have very limited time, so I apologize.

I want an answer to this question. What did you discuss with Minister Day between the 18th and the 28th, and who was present at the meeting? Please, those are the answers I'm looking for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Please give the commissioner a chance to answer.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I have to clarify this point, because there was no influence. I simply asked the minister whether he would agree to me relating personal discussions that he and I had to this committee. I think that was the proper way to do it. It would be improper for me to relay discussions that took place between the minister and me without his permission.

As I said, I came back on the Wednesday afternoon. On the Thursday morning I learned that this committee might be sitting. I then wrote a letter to the minister that same day indicating that I was anxious to appear to respond to the issue. The very next day, I met with the minister. We discussed the matter. It was during this discussion that we found out the committee was sitting on the following Tuesday. We said this is the proper--

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Didn't the committee compel you to testify?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Not at that point. We heard about it, but we said very clearly that the first place to discuss this very important issue was before this committee. That's why I took so much criticism from the press. I didn't go out right away to speak to the press. I purposely held back so this would be the first place I spoke.

As it turned out, I wish I had actually had more time, given that I didn't fully grasp all the implications of the details of this report.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Sir, who was present at the meeting when you met with Minister Day?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Day was present and his deputy minister.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Were there any notes or briefing notes shared at the time that you can share with this committee?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

No, there were no briefing notes taken; it was a very simple, short discussion. The committee was meeting, and we both agreed that it was the best place to do it, and that's why we set out to come here. But on that Tuesday you didn't sit, because the committee had some meetings, and it was put off until the Thursday. That was the 28th.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Ménard, five minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Commissioner, are you still unaware of the reasons why the Americans decided to deport Maher Arar to Syria?

[Comm. Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I'm sorry...

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Are you still unaware of the reasons why the Americans decided to deport Maher Arar to Syria?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I am.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You haven't received any additional information about Mr. Arar from US authorities?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

None at all.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Yet, given the struggle that civilized countries and their allies are waging, when one country has information about a citizen of another country that is serious enough to warrant drastic action such as deporting that individual to Syria, where he is likely to face all kinds of risks, isn't it natural to share that information with the intelligence service of that person's country of citizenship?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chairman, I do not know to this day the basis of the decisions by the Americans to send Mr. Arar to Syria. Justice O'Connor was not able to come to a decisive conclusion on that because, as he said, the Americans did not testify. I have no information I'm aware of that was shared between anybody relative to this matter, either the Syrians or the Americans.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

So then, the Americans most likely decided to deport Mr. Arar to Syria after receiving exaggerated reports or erroneous information from the RCMP, knowing full well the fate that awaited him? Isn't that right?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Again, Justice O'Connor was not able to come to a 100% conclusion as to the basis of the American decision because no American testified. He did state that Canadian information, RCMP information, was in their hands, and he said some of that information very likely contributed to that decision. But he could not come to a definitive decision on that.