Public Safety Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I thought you had stated that the false and misleading information had been corrected. Now you're saying it had not been corrected. I don't know which version, Commissioner, to appreciate in this matter, so let me go on.

Is it the case that the RCMP officials gave to American officials false and misleading information you never gave to Canadian officials, and that the information was corrected with American officials but never corrected with Canadian officials?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

No. Information was given--and this applies to your first question--to Americans that our investigators did not believe was false or inaccurate, but that Justice O'Connor, in his report, finds to be inaccurate, false, and misleading, and we did not...so we never provided that information to our ministers, because we never believed.... I didn't have that information; it was never briefed up.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Let me ask you this question, Commissioner. Did you know that the RCMP, in an unprecedented manner, to use Justice O'Connor's words, had supplied the entire SuperText database to American officials regarding Mr. Arar and any relevant investigations thereto?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I learned that from Justice O'Connor's report.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You did not know that something as serious and as unprecedented as the conveyance of an entire SuperText database had been done without your authority and knowledge, though you are the overall superintendent official responsible for the activities of the RCMP? This had never been done, ever.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

That's right. There are several points to that.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Just answer yes or no. Did you know?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

No, but they were unprecedented times. That's why there were unprecedented exchanges of information.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm using Justice O'Connor's words, that this was an unprecedented conveyance.

Let me ask you the next question. Whatever version—

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Well, Mr. Chairman—

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

No, Commissioner, I just asked you it as a statement of fact. Your answer was that you did not know.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I didn't answer the question, Mr. Chairman. I want to be able to answer the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead, Mr. Zaccardelli.

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

It was unprecedented, and I accept Justice O'Connor's report. If my memory serves me correctly, I may have seen one or two briefing notes that made reference to the fact that this extraordinary exchange of information between the Canadians and Americans did in fact take place, but that was also confirmed with Justice O'Connor.

I want to be very precise here. I believe I would have heard about that after the fact, from a briefing that I would have gotten as commissioner.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Commissioner, whatever version one takes of your testimony, that of September 28 or that of today, what is clear is that you never corrected the public record, including damaging leaks to the effect that Mr. Arar was a terrorist and “a very bad guy”, which Justice O'Connor said had a devastating effect on Maher Arar, even though you knew, by your own statement then and your own statement today—and that at least is consistent—that there was no evidence to the effect that Mr. Arar was an Islamic extremist associated with al-Qaeda. As you stated today, there was no basis to arrest him, to detain him, to refuse his entry into Canada. Yet when all these damaging leaks came out—and Mr. Justice O'Connor refers to eight damaging leaks—seriously prejudicing, have a devastating effect on Mr. Arar, you never once corrected the public record. Don't you think that as the Commissioner of the RCMP you had a responsibility, when a Canadian citizen was in a place we knew routinely tortured Canadian citizens, to correct the public record?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Cotler, as I've stated previously and in my testimony today, Mr. Arar was a person of interest from the very beginning of this investigation. He continued to be a person of interest to the RCMP when he was detained in New York, while he was detained in Syria, in jail, and throughout the inquiry. He ceased to be a person of interest to us only at the conclusion of Justice O'Connor's report.

He was always a person of interest to us. Justice O'Connor says we legitimately had every right to label him as a person of interest and to investigate him. That is why I could not say anything about that. At the first opportunity, after the report came out, I publicly apologized for the part the RCMP may have had in the ordeal that Mr. Arar was subjected to.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have one last question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It will be your final question, quickly, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Whatever version one takes of your testimony, September 28 or today, it is clear that you never advised Canadian ministers, as Justice O'Connor says, of the detailed timeline and investigative information that they ought to have known. Two, you never corrected the public record, as I indicated today. Three, you did not support the one-voice letter, as Justice O'Connor said you should have, though Mr. Arar's rights had been and continued to seriously be abused after that point. Fourth, you did not take pains, though asked to do so as Commissioner of the RCMP, to determine the full truth about a Canadian who was being held in detention. Forget about what you would have been told and what you were not. You did not, yourself, take the pains.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time is up, Mr. Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

My question to you is, should a person who is the Commissioner of the RCMP, with all the failures that I have just itemized and others, continue to be responsible for the activities of the RCMP when there was a clear failure and breach of those responsibilities as I have described them and as Justice O'Connor describes them?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Could I have a brief response?

[Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Cotler, you've asked me about seven questions in one question. I will try to answer as best I can.

You talk about the fact that I did not or the RCMP did not brief the ministers on these errors or these facts. As I've stated previously, and as the report of Mr. O'Connor states, I could not have advised them because I was not aware of that information. That information only came out after Justice O'Connor did his comprehensive auditing and review of this file. As soon as that happened, I came before this committee and I issued an apology, as I stated, in order that Mr. Arar would understand that we were sorry for whatever part we played in the ordeal that took place.

We did everything we could. I did inform myself. I was told repeatedly, and I passed this on to our ministers and to PCO, that Mr. Arar was a person of interest. He continued to be a person of interest throughout the investigation. We could not charge him criminally. We could not detain him if he came back to Canada. We could not prevent him from coming to Canada. We passed on all the information I knew. I could not pass on information that I did not have, and Justice O'Connor states that in his report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Good morning, Commissioner. Thank you for attending again.

The last time you were here I asked you a question with regard to the process you were undertaking to make sure this would not happen again. I think I referred to perhaps sharing best practices with other larger police organizations, whether they be in Canada or elsewhere—I perhaps didn't say elsewhere, and we do have other organizations within Canada.

Today you have told the committee that you have put in place a structure whereby the circumstances surrounding Mr. Maher Arar would not occur again. I'm wondering whether you had anyone else, from outside your organization, take a look at the implementation of that plan to ensure that perhaps a pair of fresh eyes might shed more light on the situation.

I guess my question is, did you in fact go elsewhere to get some information or to ask for an opinion? If so, who would it have been, and what kind of information exchange did you have?