Public Safety Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Brown, please.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, it's good to see you again.

My friend Mr. Holland has been going on at length about how you should have known in advance of Mr. Zaccardelli's bombshell reversal of this Tuesday because of his November 2 letter to the committee, which in my view shows no such detail. But last week when former Minister Anne McLellan was before us—this was a week before Mr. Zaccardelli's reversed memory—she was asked a question from Mr. Hawn. She responded by saying that she knew he was reappearing, and that perhaps--I quote--“He may very well clarify some of his comments on what he knew when.”

Now, I don't want to join Mr. Holland's conspiracy theory club here, but the fact is that this whole mess happened when his party was in charge. They were the ones in charge of this whole mess. It seems that his whole theory got going when our government took over.

Are you aware of any communications that are ongoing between any of your officials or those in the PCO and Ms. McLellan? I can tell you that this seems pretty coincidental to me.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It sounds like you're on to a conspiracy of some kind.

As I said, in regard to discussions, in terms of who the commissioner talks with when he's not talking with me, I don't have a record of that. I wouldn't want that record. I haven't asked for it. I don't know if officials either at the Prime Minister's Office or the Privy Council Office have talked with Ms. McLellan. I have no idea.

My concern is to make sure Canadians understand that we've taken action since this report has come out. We're following all the recommendations. We want to see the right systems put in place.

The questions you're raising are important, and they're tough questions related to Ms. McLellan and others. I don't think it's a dereliction on my part to say, you know, I'm just not spending all that much time on what she may or may not have said to an official then. My concern is, what's in place now? Do we have a system that's going to work?

As Mr. Comartin said, we never want to see this happen again. Mr. Cotler has reflected that sentiment. Mr. Holland has reflected that sentiment. I think all of us are agreed on one thing around here: we don't want to see this happen again. That's where my focus is, and that's where my energies are.

These are tough questions you're asking, and I'll pass them down the line, but I have to tell you I have so much energy, and it's going to be put first to the safety and security of Canadians.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Of course. And Minister, that brings me to a question that is of great—

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I wasn't saying I have so much energy. I meant I have only so much energy, and that's where it's going to be directed.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Minister. That brings me to a question that's of a great deal of interest to me, and it's something that I've asked all of the witnesses we've heard concerning the Arar inquiry over the last number of months. It's about the O'Connor report.

In the first report—and we know the second report's coming next week—he included amongst his 23 recommendations a call for a strong arm's-length national security review process. As I said, we know he's going to table his second report on Monday, and I expect it's going to have some recommendations to do with that. But could you provide the committee with some examples of national security oversight models from around the world, so that we can get an idea of what we might do going forward?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

We're looking into that. I know that this committee has previously looked into that. There are a number of models, and they vary from country to country.

As you know, in the United States there's a certain oversight model. People are sworn in and they spend a lot of time on committee processes like this, which some people probably find entertaining. And some actually do some good. New Zealand has a certain model. Great Britain has a certain model. Some of those involve members from all parties, selected by leaders or selected by the leader, who take an oath of secrecy. Some of them take an oath for as long as they're in office, others take an oath for life, which is a considerable thing to do, but it's on the grounds that they will be aware of certain national security interests that are vital to the safety of their country, and they don't want them writing a book ten years later exposing how their country protects itself.

There are a variety of models, but I can tell you that I've looked at some of the suggestions that Mr. Comartin has brought forward and that Mr. Cotler has brought forward. I know that Mr. Ménard has des idées . I think everybody had some ideas on that. That's why we're not being presumptuous. I have some ideas on what I think would work. I want to wait, first, to see what Justice O'Connor has. I'd like to run those ideas by this committee.

We do need an oversight capacity of some kind that we don't have now. I don't want that to drag on forever, either. With this committee, and under provisions of the ATA, a lot of work has gone into that. I don't want to go over the old ground. I think we can take what Justice O'Connor--I don't want to sound presumptuous--offers next week, and then let's compare notes and let's get to it and come up with something that works for Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll go to Mr. Alghabra for about one minute.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Minister, you talk about hyperbole. First of all, I want to say that I'm sickened by your attitude today, making jokes about something as serious as uncovering and getting to the bottom of what happened to Mr. Arar, who almost died because of errors that were indisputably caused by RCMP officials. That is indisputable, and you are making jokes about that and hyperbole.

Do you remember what you were doing when you were in opposition? Do you remember calling Mr. Arar a terrorist? Please answer this question with humility and thoughtfulness. Do you regret what you did when you were in opposition, and will you apologize for calling him a terrorist?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I never did. Second, you seem to be affected by the person immediately to your left--

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Again, you're joking. There is no need for patronizing. This is a very serious question. Please answer it with modesty and thoughtfulness, and reflect your position.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

If you'd let me do that, I'm trying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'll adjourn the meeting if you remain out of order, Mr. Alghabra.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You are, unfortunately, taking on a habit of your friend to the left, who quotes partial news releases and half-truths. It's a very dangerous thing to do. You would find, if you took the time, that I've been on record demanding from the Minister of Foreign Affairs at the time why he was allowing this to happen and talking about the things that Mr. Arar was going through. You should put all of that on record. Also--

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Are you going to apologize for some of the comments you made?

It's my time, Chair.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I do wish you'd let me answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time expired a long time ago, sir.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

It has not--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Also, I think the record is very clear. I have used humour at times to try to deflect what is an outrageous and at times equally humorous approach that one person likes to take--it's well known that he takes certain approaches, and I find at times that his approach is somewhat laughable. But in terms of what happened to Mr. Arar, I think you--well, I know you won't retract it--are absolutely wrong in terms of thinking I made any kind of humorous reflection on what happened to Mr. Arar. That is wrong. That is an absolutely false characterization. I'll continue to use humour from time to time when people are using sarcasm on me, just to try to expose that.

But there is nothing humorous in what happened to Mr. Arar. There's nothing humorous about the fact that this continued for so many years without being addressed. We are very concerned about that, and we are not the government that was there when the affair took place; we're the government taking action to make sure it never happens again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Mr. Day.

We have a point of order from Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Perhaps this is a correction. The second report is coming out on Tuesday morning, not on Monday. It's going to be released in the House at 10 o'clock on Tuesday morning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for appearing before the committee.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'd like to thank you and I'd like to thank all committee members.

Let me also thank the men and women of the RCMP, who every day are out there on the front lines. They're the ones who want wrong exposed, whether it's in organized crime or within their organization. I can tell you that they are not discouraged today. Maybe they don't like what happens or what goes on, but they're out there aggressively. Another very major announcement is coming out today about a significant drug operation being broken.

You know, I think we should have tough questions about the RCMP. I'd like to let committee members know that I'm asking that the act be reviewed. This one-year provision unfortunately gives the appearance that people who may have done some wrong within the RCMP get off because of the one year. I'm asking that this be changed.

As much as we always have to pursue any possible wrongdoing among police forces, every now and then it's nice to mention the incredible work they do--the biggest organized crime bust in history last week, for instance, with 700 officers involved. Far more than that were involved in this operation. There are good things happening every day with our members in the RCMP, and I congratulate them for that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

The meeting stands adjourned.