Public Safety Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But I'm talking about government; I'm not talking about people or friends of his outside the government. I'm talking about individuals who worked with the government, who would have had conversations with Mr. Zaccardelli, which he said took place.

Are you telling me he lied to us under oath, or are you telling me there were public servants he met with and you're refusing to tell me who they were? Who from the government met with Commissioner Zaccardelli through that period of time?

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

A point of order, Mr. Brown.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Chair, part of Mr. Holland's comments and questions concern something that happened in camera and was not in fact dealt with publicly. So I think privilege has been breached here. I don't know how we would deal with that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chair, the outcomes of an in camera meeting are public. That was an outcome. I did not discuss at any time the proceedings of the in camera meeting. What I discussed was the outcome of an in camera meeting, and that most certainly is public.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

I'd like to hear from Madam Clerk on that point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Let me clarify that.

We are not sure that Ms. Bloodworth is going to be here next Tuesday. We have simply decided to invite her, and I think you have to walk very carefully here, Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay.

This didn't come out of my time, correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

No, the clock is stopped.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Day, first of all, you still haven't answered the question about senior officials. Are you declining to respond?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You haven't taken a breath so that I could.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm asking you now. This is your opportunity.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, I can tell you that I do not keep track of the commissioner's schedule. It would be political interference.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Do you keep track of your own officials?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'm trying to be respectful and to listen to you, though you go on at quite a rate. You've asked me a question and now you don't let me reply. Mr. Holland, it takes some time to answer the question, because you state things that aren't true as if they were, and then continue with the question.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But you won't answer my questions; that's my dilemma. You will not answer the questions I pose to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Holland, perhaps you could give the minister a chance to reply.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Perhaps you could just inhale a couple of times and let me do this. I do not keep track of the commissioner's schedule. It would be political interference. I can't give you a list of the government officials he's met with and talked with. I'm sure he could.

Let me say in a broad way, Mr. Chairman, that I can tell you unequivocally that I do not politically interfere with the Commissioner of the RCMP. One of Mr. Holland's colleagues has acknowledged that publicly; others have also. It's only Mr. Holland who sees a conspiracy behind every rock and every tree. As the cape crusader or, as I said the other day, Perry Mason on steroids, however you want to characterize yourself, this is not L.A. Law, Mr. Holland. This is Canada. And you know that generally we take people at their word, until it's proven differently.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Day, if I could—

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I would like you to retract the comment you made yesterday when you said that Mr. Zaccardelli sat here and said that he had to have permission from me before he spoke.

Would you be willing to retract that, Mr. Holland?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

No, and I would reference the quote.

But let me say two things. What happened to Mr. Arar was a tremendous tragedy. If I have to ask hard questions and you don't like it, then I apologize that you don't like answering tough questions. I asked specifically about whether or not the Prime Minister interfered in this matter. You refused to answer that question. It was a pointed and direct question.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

No, I answered it.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

And I will not, absolutely not, stand here and throw softball questions to please you in this matter. You were one of the first people, Mr. Day, who labelled Mr. Arar as a terrorist.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You time is up, sir.

Monsieur Ménard, for seven minutes, please.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, again, I have a number of good questions for you.