Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[Chris D. Lewis]

Yes, it's somewhat easier to learn than the firearms proficiency part.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

As a result of my previous career, I know a little about the case law in Canada on the use of force by police officers. It is not an easy topic.

Does part of the training that police officers receive enable them to understand what legal liabilities they incur when they handle a firearm and what the consequences can be, that is to say that they could be charged or prosecuted?

[Chris D. Lewis]

They're certainly well educated on section 25 of the Criminal Code, which outlines the use of deadly force or force that might cause bodily harm, as well as on the legislation on the drawing of a firearm, etc., that's contained in the Ontario Police Services Act. They're examined on that. They have to know it. They have to pass exams, and that becomes part of their personal record in their staff personal file for their entire career. They go over that in their annual in-service training as well, in terms of what are the authorities to use deadly force.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Could you estimate the time spent giving that legal training on the use of firearms?

[Chris D. Lewis]

I'd only be guessing, sir. I certainly could find that out, or potentially some other witness could deliver that more accurately.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I'd like that very much. I imagine you can look at the syllabus and easily find it. That's in addition to the 49 hours of training that you give on firearms, isn't it?

[Chris D. Lewis]

Yes, it is, and that includes some long weapons--shotgun and rifle--as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have time for just a brief follow-up.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I have one final question. You also told us that you administer psychological tests to the people who are trained.

Is one of the goals of those psychological tests to determine whether they are capable of handling firearms or using extreme force?

[Chris D. Lewis]

Once again, I'd only be guessing, because I'm obviously not a psychologist. But that's always been my assumption: we don't want to have people out there potentially using force of any kind, including firearms and deadly force, who don't fit the psychological profile that's required.

We do fairly extensive testing. It's called the MMPI. I don't know what all that means, but ultimately people are turned down, including children of our own officers, for the reason that they did not pass psychological tests. So we take it very seriously.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Comartin, you have seven minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You are a model witness. Your answers are precise and very useful.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sure, Deputy Commissioner, that comes from many years of experience in having to testify in court rooms.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to pursue the line of questioning of Mr. Ménard, but specifically regarding the process that a trainee goes through. I assume you're drawing that from best practices, either in Canada or even globally. Is that a fair assumption on my part?

[Chris D. Lewis]

That's a very fair assumption. I know that our academy director sits on a North American committee of police trainers, with other state and law enforcement agencies from across the United States and Canada. They really examine best practices, and they try to benefit from what others have learned. They analyze real-life situations that have shown them potential flaws in training or flaws in equipment, which were unexpected. They can then adjust training to better address these.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And those best practice standards are readily available to border service agencies so they can design a curriculum to put their people through?

[Chris D. Lewis]

Without a doubt.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

This may be a follow-up to Mr. Cullen's question. We hear that they're going to be armed, they're never going to use these arms, and then after a while they're going to get stale and be a risk factor. I remember seeing Canadian statistics somewhere that a large number of police officers retire having never fired their guns in action confronting potential accused persons.

[Chris D. Lewis]

That's very true, sir. I don't know the exact figure, but the vast majority of officers, who are not involved in specialized units like tactical teams, canine, drug enforcement, or areas where they're continually faced with armed confrontation, would probably never draw their guns except in training situations. That's specifically why we do the annual training. Statistically they've proven that this annual model is a good refresher and keeps your skills to the proper level so you can respond in a real situation.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you have any reason to believe, given your experience, that it would be any different with the border service agents, and as they went through similar annual upgrading or training they would be as capable as officers in other detachments?

[Chris D. Lewis]

Without a doubt. I spent many years in various specialist positions, including a tactical team, but other than that I very seldom ever had my gun out of the holster. But I passed the training every year, and I take it religiously, knowing that some day the situation might arise, even at my rank, where I have to take action. I'm very confident that the training I've had still provides me with the ability to do that to this day.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You don't see yourself as a risk to the general community.

[Chris D. Lewis]

No. My wife might testify differently.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Deputy Commissioner, the concern I have, which is shared by other members and by the border service agents, is that it's taking an awfully long time to implement this decision. One of the explanations we're given is that there are limited services available to do the training.

Do you know if the OPP has been approached to be one of the trainers to provide that service, either through the college or in some other fashion? Whether you have or have not been approached, would the OPP be available to provide that service on contract to the federal government?

[Chris D. Lewis]

I don't know if we've been approached, sir. I could find that out. I strongly suspect we would be available to provide that service under some contract. We have provided it to other police agencies, like first nations police services in Ontario. It's totally within our capability to help do that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Those are all my questions, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.