Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2007

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

That's in case they get shot accidentally.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Anything could happen.

Actually the price of the firearm itself--and I stand to be corrected--is somewhere in the order of less than $1,000, I believe. I'll make sure on that.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Could I also ask you to give us an assurance here that with respect to this firearm acquisition, the consultants retained by either CBSA or Public Works and Government Services do not have any associations with any of the bidders, any conflicts of interest so that the process will be seen to be fair? I know that Smith & Wesson is a possible bidder. I know that Para-Ordnance is a possible bidder. Could you just give an assurance that the consultants retained to design the specifications and advise with respect to the consultation won't have any conflicts, and that the process will be a really good transparent one?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It's a fair question, especially in light of past concerns in other eras regarding procurement. Any group can run into difficulties if the process isn't absolutely clear and transparent. I can assure you it is. The Auditor General will be looking at the process. I would invite any of the members here to look at it. You're right: Smith & Wesson, as a matter of fact, is one of the firearms that to this point is receiving a high degree of favour. I don't know if they're going to wind up with the eventual contract.

I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, it will be clear and transparent and open to the view of this committee and anybody else who wants to see it.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you have a question?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Minister.

Do you know how many border officers wear bullet-proof vests? I think they have bullet-proof vests.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

They have vests. I don't know whether they all have their own vests.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Is there any directive to that effect?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Perhaps they can leave their protective clothing after their shift. I can enquire into the exact number and tell you whether they share the equipment or whether they have their own equipment.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Is there a directive that states, for example, that such and such a border officer at such and such a position always has to wear a bullet-proof vest? Are there any rules? Give us an example.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The instructions are very clear with regard to the type of equipment they must wear. I don't have the instructions specific to each one here today, but I can get them for each piece of equipment.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

That means that, according to the directives, all border officers on duty should normally wear a bullet-proof vest. Is that in fact the case, or does that concern specific positions instead? For example, are those at the airport treated differently from those who are at land border posts? What is the criterion for determining which ones must wear a vest and which ones don't have to?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I can provide you with the exact list, Mr. Chair. A person may have to wear different clothing depending whether he or she works indoors or outdoors. That's a good question; I'm going to provide you with the answer.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Furthermore, to your knowledge, over a period of three or four years, how many people are shot at by criminals? How many have been injured, wounded, and so on?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Let me be specific with the numbers on that question.

There are incidents that are recorded when border officers have difficulty at the border. One of the things that's very hard to pin down is the deterrent factor. For instance, most Canadians may not be aware that the rate now, in Canada, is that there are about 13,260 individuals in the private sector who have sidearms, working for security firms. Generally it's the armoured-car services. I want you to think about that for a minute. There are over 13,000 people, right now, with firearms, across Canada, protecting bags of coins, and they're walking into malls every day. They're walking on our streets. We see them. They pull up to high-rise buildings, they walk in there. It happens from time to time, but it's very rare. So the flip side of the question is: if they didn't have those firearms, what would be happening?

The question we face with the border officers is that we know there are times when in fact, because they don't have firearms, the wrong people are coming to the border. The wrong people are thinking they can get across the border. We know there are times when people get across the border from the United States, and they do harm. I'm not blaming Americans. I'm just saying the same thing happens, from time to time, that Canadians get across the border and do damage in the United States, kill people and do other things.

So the number of incidents that occur where there's some kind of physical interaction, if I can say that, they're rare because of the professionalism of the border officers. If you've been to--I'm sure you have--what they call the “secondary sites” where somebody is sent, they have to be both ambassadors and policing-type officers at the same time, because they're telling people.... They're asking them to get out of their car. They're saying we're going to search your car. And as I said, about two dozen times today, the person getting out of the car knows they have drugs in the car or the truck, and they know there's a chance that's going to be found. It's a very sensitive and dangerous situation.

So we have to weigh out the deterring effect. But in terms of number of incidents, it is rare. We of course hope that with firearms preventing people, there will be a message to the criminal and possibly the terrorist community. There will be a message that it's going to be difficult to get past a Canadian border officer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Minister, I might be putting you on the spot a bit here, but I am very interested when it comes to cost. What would be the cost of shutting down a very busy border point for five or six hours because the posts have been abandoned? Have any studies been done on this? I'm not aware of any.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

There are studies out there that show what the costs would be if an incident happened, accidental or otherwise. I'll use the Windsor-Detroit bridge as an example. Once you get up to two and three hours, you're quickly running into the hundreds of millions of dollars at a border point like that one. We have some very, very busy border points.

There's another thing on the cost. I'm concerned about cost as much as anybody is, but think of it this way. This year, those border officers, in import duties alone, will collect about $3.2 billion. In GST-HST, they will collect about $22 billion. If you wanted to look at it from the point of earning their keep or paying for their operation, the total operation of CBSA this year is going to be about $3.14 billion. That's what it's going to cost to run the whole operation. As I said, in import duties alone they're collecting $3.2 billion, and in GST-HST they're collecting about $22 billion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I was going to put this in context.

Go ahead, Mr. Miller.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, thank you for being here.

I don't normally sit on this committee. I've been very interested in this topic, so a lot of this is of interest to me.

I can't help but make one comment. It's a little ironic that Mr. Lee seemed to have a problem spending $100,000 on public safety, but at the same time he didn't seem to have a problem supporting the $2 billion on the long-gun registry, which does absolutely nothing for public safety.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That's a good point.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Anyway, could you tell us a little bit more about the altered ModuSpec report? I understand there is also a Northgate report. I'm not really familiar with them and I'd like to hear some comments.

I'd like to hear exactly what was recommended by those reports and I'd like to hear a little more about the level of support, negative or positive, among the border service agents themselves. Basically, are they supporting the government? Did they request the government? Did they request the previous government? Could I have some stuff along those lines?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The request has been long outstanding.

As for your observation about the gun registry, I'll leave that to you and Mr. Lee to discuss, but--

[An hon. member]

I'm glad he spotted the connection.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

--I'm sensitive to your point.

All the surveys are showing that the vast majority, whether you go with the Northgate study, with CEUDA's own study, or with the somewhat anecdotal study that was done by management itself at CBSA.... They did a report that was anecdotal, in that they talked, as I said, with groups of individuals or one-on-one, just asking what they thought.

There will be a percentage of people.... First of all, the number saying they absolutely don't want a firearm, according to the Northgate and CEUDA report, is very low; it's somewhere in the range of 2%. There will be those who will not be able to physically pass the test, whether it's eyesight or whatever it may be, in order to qualify. In those cases, there are both regional and administrative positions that can certainly accommodate those who are saying that they absolutely don't want to do this.

However, it will be part of the professional package. Everybody now coming into CBSA would not be able to entertain the prospect of not having a sidearm, just as a firefighter couldn't sign up to enter the profession of firefighting and say they never want to ride on a fire truck. That person would be excused from the beginning.

Some accommodation will be attempted to be made, but the overwhelming majority want this, and in terms of your question of how long it has been out there, they've been asking for this provision for literally years.

I don't want to get into a political partisan thing. You know how much I dislike partisanship, but we looked at this before the last election, and now, as the new government of Canada, and for all the reasons I've stated, we see this as absolutely necessary for the ongoing safety, security, and prosperity of Canada, first of all, and secondarily for our friends to the south.