Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
They're those large potatoes that they buy in the market when they're not allowed to. The number doesn't include those?
Director General, Policy and Program Development Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
I don't know. I can't speak specifically to that, but I can tell you that the range of goods is significant. In terms of breakdown, most often what we're seeing are the designer clothing goods.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
As I stated, historically we've had approximately 400 charges per year, and in 2005 there were approximately 700 charges laid nationally. I have to understand those 700 charges are not all related to organized crime in the traditional sense. As well, they represent a very small percentage. I would suggest that they're less than 15% or 20%.
Conservative
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'd really like to thank my friend Ms. Barnes for pointing out that they didn't get the job done when it came to legislation that you folks need to do your job.
I would ask you, Ms. Segal, if there was ever a lead minister as such.
Deputy Director, Intellectual Property, Information and Technology Trade Policy Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
We never got to the point of putting forward an MC. That's usually when a lead minister is....
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I appreciate that.
Has anybody had an opportunity to look at what the job losses and revenue seepage would be to Canada because of both pirated and counterfeit goods coming into the country? What does our legitimate industry lose, and what is the revenue seepage?
Deputy Director, Intellectual Property, Information and Technology Trade Policy Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
We're looking at that now in the context of the OECD study, but it's very difficult as well. When you're talking about percentage of the world trade, does that include things that can't be counterfeited, like commodities such as oil—although if they can counterfeit eggs, maybe they can do that too. In terms of the statistics coming out, it's not clear if they're comparable.
That's part of the work that we're doing internationally, but it's hard to estimate domestically as well, because it is an underground activity. Industry groups have their own estimates, and they are substantial in terms of their losses. Whether those losses are here or in external markets as well is sometimes not as clear.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Chief Superintendent, I notice that you have some items sitting in front of you. Are those counterfeit items?
C/Supt Mike Cabana
One is a tube of counterfeit Krazy Glue. I would invite you to have a look at it, because in looking at it, you can't tell. The only way it was determined to be counterfeit was through analysis. To develop expertise even for the border enforcement officers is therefore next to impossible. You actually require a detailed analysis of the product.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
I haven't tried it. I had my experience with the batteries, and that was enough, frankly.
I also have a package of Duracell batteries that are counterfeits. The way you can tell they are counterfeits is through some grammatical errors and spelling mistakes on the backs of the packages.
I brought a strobe light. Although there's no brand on the strobe light, there's a UL logo or sticker on the back, and that UL logo is counterfeit.
The second lamp, which I assume is similar to a lava lamp, is not contained in there, because it actually caught fire. This goes a bit to the discussion we had earlier. This product was purchased at a reputable store, and the store was not aware that they were selling counterfeit products. As soon as they were made aware, they recalled the product as counterfeit. Again, you will find the proper UL labelling on the box, which is counterfeit.
The last lamp is a fluorescent type of lamp. It's the same thing. It's a counterfeit product.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Would it be fair to say, then, that even an informed Canadian consumer would be hard pressed to pick out a counterfeit item that may be dangerous or that may cause injury to the consumer or their family?
C/Supt Mike Cabana
I think it would be fair to say that, depending on the type of product, they would not only be hard pressed to tell the difference, they would find it impossible to tell the difference.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
You pointed out the batteries that caught fire. If you were to put that on your website, would it also negatively impact the legitimate producer of that battery pack?
C/Supt Mike Cabana
Actually, it is of concern to industry how the warnings are being put out to the public. This is why we work closely with private industry, to try to minimize those impacts.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you.
To the CBSA, we do a reasonable job, maybe better than reasonable, of checking containers coming into the country. If we have an industry in Canada that produces counterfeit items, do we check containers going out of the country?
Director General, Policy and Program Development Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
To reiterate, we don't have any legal authority to check containers for counterfeit goods coming in or out of the country. That was from the discussion earlier.
Generally speaking, customs officials do have the authority to inspect exports leaving the country, provided that, again, as mentioned earlier, the exportation of that good is prohibited or controlled or regulated under a piece of legislation. So it's the exact same regime, if you like, as importation.
Customs officials will inspect containers of goods being exported provided they are prohibited or they need, say, a permit under the Import Export Permits Act. But unless and until it is prescribed in legislation as requiring control, prohibition, or regulation for leaving the country, then no, we do not examine or interdict things leaving the country.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
It's fair to say, though, that we would not regularly, in any manner, check outgoing shipments, and that may be one of the reasons why some of our trading partners would take exception to us?
Director General, Policy and Program Development Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
That's correct.
Deputy Director, Intellectual Property, Information and Technology Trade Policy Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Just to modify that a bit, Canada is not a large source country of counterfeit goods.
