Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A recording is available from Parliament.
March 27th, 2007 / 12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I would like to thank you for your testimony. I have learned a great deal today.
My question is addressed to Mr. Becker. In your discussion earlier with Mr. Norlock about a working group composed of officials from 10 departments, I understood that you are awaiting instructions from the Minister to draft legislation, but that you already have an idea of the kinds of improvements or initiatives that could be helpful. What potential improvements are we talking about?
12:25 p.m.
Coordinator and Senior Counsel, Intellectual Property Secretariat, Department of Justice
If I may, Madame Mourani, I'll respond in English.
12:30 p.m.
Coordinator and Senior Counsel, Intellectual Property Secretariat, Department of Justice
This will probably be a very frustrating answer for members of the committee.
What we have done in the context of the committee is to come to substantial agreement on what the problems are and perhaps how they ought to be properly addressed. But those are policy issues, frankly, and some kind of ministerial direction or position is going to have to be taken on them before we can actually identify them specifically. Those choices haven't been made; they're not our prerogative, if you like, as public servants.
You've heard from various members of the panel this morning on what some of those problems were. Perhaps identifying a problem suggests an answer. For example, the Canada Border Services Agency isn't authorized to intercept counterfeit or pirated goods at the border. That problem suggests an answer. Our trademark legislation doesn't have an offence analogous to the offence in the Copyright Act. That problem suggests an answer.
I could go on here. The problems that have been identified to some extent at the table today also suggest what kind of answer would be appropriate. I'm very conscious of the fact that our role here today has to be descriptive rather than prescriptive because ministers have not made the prescriptive choices, the policy choices, with respect to these issues.
12:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
You say that the penalties are light and may consist of house arrest, and so on. Are those the penalties for traffickers or for people who are found in possession of trafficked or counterfeit goods?
12:30 p.m.
Coordinator and Senior Counsel, Intellectual Property Secretariat, Department of Justice
Those would be for people convicted of selling pirated or counterfeit goods. Usually we're talking about people with major Internet-based operations for the sale of pirated software or we're talking about major retailers, for example, of sporting equipment, who are selling counterfeit product. They're getting reasonably substantial fines and penalties in the order of six to eight months of house arrest.
12:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Are they also imposed on merchants who may not necessarily have manufactured the product but are selling it? That is what I understood. It may include businesses that are not aware and buy counterfeit goods without realizing that the product is illegal.
12:30 p.m.
Coordinator and Senior Counsel, Intellectual Property Secretariat, Department of Justice
In the cases I am describing, we're talking about retailers who were aware they were selling counterfeit or pirated products. However, it does happen that--without naming any particular retailers--they will have a line of counterfeit designer clothing on their shelves, and usually the presence of those counterfeit goods will be spotted by the company responsible for the distribution of that particular line of clothing. Those goods will be taken off the shelf and there will be a settlement between the rights holder and the retailer that does not involve any kind of criminal prosecution.
12:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
When you arrest members of organized crime groups, are they given this kind of light sentence or do you consider the fact that they are part of an organized crime group, and so on?
12:30 p.m.
Coordinator and Senior Counsel, Intellectual Property Secretariat, Department of Justice
The brief answer is we're talking mostly about retailers of pirated or counterfeit goods, who are not linked to organized crime.
Chief Superintendent Cabana could perhaps speak to prosecutions involving organized crime, but I'm not personally aware of that.
12:30 p.m.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
To my knowledge, there have been very few criminal prosecutions involving people identified as members of traditional organized crime groups. As I explained earlier, judicial independence means that it is up to the judge to decide what sentence is appropriate. I believe one can reasonably conclude that the sentences handed down to people involved in organized crime would be tougher than for merchants.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
I'm just trying to understand.
Is it difficult or complicated to make an arrest in the context of that kind of criminal activity? Let's forget about drugs for the moment and talk about trade in counterfeit goods involving members of criminal organizations. Is the perception of the judicial process not the same when you are arresting people for possession of drugs or firearms?
12:35 p.m.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
In terms of the perception of the judicial system, that question should probably be addressed to people who are part of the system—the judges, in other words.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Have sentences been handed down on that basis, or does that not work? Have there been such cases?
12:35 p.m.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
The main distinction is the one I mentioned earlier. It has to do with our ability to get at the property of these organized crime groups. Whether we're talking about these kinds of assets or narcotics, the same groups are involved. The difference is that if the offences were committed under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, we are able to seize the assets of the organization.
12:35 p.m.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
No, not in this case.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
I'd like a clarification on that. Wouldn't there have to be some kind of illegal organization bringing in goods from another country? How do you define “organized crime”, as opposed to organizations that are bringing in all these illegal goods? I'm trying to grapple with that.
12:35 p.m.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
The definition of organized crime is found in the Criminal Code. It's pretty broad. It's three or more people, but I would submit to you that “three or more people” would include, especially if importation is involved, just about everybody who brings in counterfeit. The focus for the RCMP, of course, is on the traditional criminal organizations such as--
12:35 p.m.
C/Supt Mike Cabana
--the outlaw motorcycle gangs and groups of that nature.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
You would have to have some kind of organization to involve....
Let's move on to Mr. Brown, please.