Public Safety Committee on May 15th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll need to allow a little time for the answers. You touched on a lot of issues.

Go ahead, Mr. Minister.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'll touch on as many as I can, and any that I don't get to, you have my commitment that I'll get back to you on the specifics.

In fact, overall in terms of public safety, there's been an 8% increase in the budget, from just over $6 billion to $6.5 billion. I can show you how various capital allotments happened, and, when we secure two-year funding, how a preponderance of that may come out in the second year and some of that in the first year, and that's done through the supplementary requisitioning process. But I'll get back to you on specifics that you've mentioned, if I don't get to all of them within the time allotted.

People should, and I've been asking that people would, simply abandon previous speculation in terms of the overall cost of arming the border officers. That's simply not an accurate figure. As a matter of fact, we have calculated it, and I'm just going to give you an idea of the types of things that are involved in this whole process.

Training and development, in terms of the program itself, is about a $3-million figure. You have to look at training existing officers, and then there's refresher training, which is once a year, and the recertification that goes into that. With respect to the equipment itself, including the firearms, the holsters, the belts, and the armoury services, it's $43 million to cover everything to do with the actual equipment itself. The infrastructure in terms of storage, but also increased training, certification, location facilities, and expanded facilities, is over $90 million. All added up, that comes to just over $770 million.

That is before proposals are put out. We want to have our certified program in place to show what's necessary to deliver this. After that, starting in the next budget year, we put out requests for proposals. We've had some very interesting offers in terms of supplementary facilities, facilities that can be used in parallel, that will bring costs down. That also includes hiring 400 more people. If you're looking at a specific figure, if you want to talk about firearms, the actual equipment itself is $43 million.

I realize it's a little difficult to maintain all in one package, but it's nowhere near the figure you mentioned. In fact, we believe once the proposals go out, you're going to see it lowered.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

What about reclassifying all the people to public safety officers? You'll have to pay them more. Where's that money?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I can't speak to labour-management issues, Chairman. Certainly when people are more qualified to do more things, we can surmise that this may enter into discussions, but it's not our position to get involved. That's a labour-management issue. That could well be, but there are the offsetting costs.

When you look at the economic analysis of what happens, for instance, at White Rock when the border shuts down, when they receive notice that there's someone armed and dangerous approaching and they can't properly protect the public because they're not armed, you know what happens. If that happens at a major port of entry, like Detroit-Windsor, for instance, within four hours factories start closing down their production lines because of just-in-time delivery. So when you look at the offset to those types of incidents not happening, you can make a case quite quickly that this is revenue-positive. But those begin to be a little speculative.

These are costs, and as you break them down, you get to see that a lot more is being purchased than simply an actual firearm.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Mourani.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

If I could just say, Chairman, the member raised a number of areas in which in fact there have not been decreases. Through Department of Finance requirements in terms of reporting, it may show a negative in a line here, but it shows up as a positive elsewhere. On each one he raised, I will get that information to the committee and show there have been increases.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Sure. Maybe some officials can discuss this after you leave, Mr. Minister. We're pressed for time here, I'm sorry.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead, Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank you for appearing before the committee today to answer our questions. I would like to discuss the NCPC. You said that prevention is an important factor in the fight against crime. In fact, you came to my riding to announce that Quebec would be receiving millions of dollars for crime prevention, for youth at risk and more specifically for street gangs, which I find quite interesting. However, we don't really see these millions of dollars being put to use, on the ground. I could give you many examples, but because we are short of time, I will mention only two.

First, an application for a project called AIDE was submitted to the NCPC. It is sponsored by the Faculty of Arts and Sciences from the Université de Montréal as well as by the CSSS in my riding; the application was submitted in June 2006. They came to see me in February or March 2007, because they had not yet received a response. On April 2, 2007, we got in touch with your office, and we were told, around 11:48 a.m., that the project had not been accepted. At 3:56 p.m., we were told that a decision was not quite firm. The next day, we were told that the application had not been turned down, but that it was been studied and that no other information was available. A number of days later, on April 25, we contacted your office, but our call was never returned. Seven days later, someone from your office called to say that the project was still been reviewed, and that there was no indication of what was to come. That is no way to run a program. We really don't know what is happening with this application.

There is also a project, Médiation sociale et communautaire Sainte-Marie, sponsored by the Université de Montréal. The aim is to set up a mediation committee in a specific area where there is low cost housing. This is a high risk neighbourhood where a number of children are practically living in the street. The committee would allow parents and people from the community to find a peaceful solution to their conflicts. It seeks to prevent the creation of street gangs, that, I can assure you, just as project AIDE targets the development and safety of children. So both projects are intended to combat street gangs. That group received its response on March 30, 2007. There was an apology for the delay because the response had been almost one year in coming, since the department had been reviewing subsidy programs, including the MCPC. Then, they were told that their application had been denied because the priority was to reduce the number of high risk neighbourhood, etc. But the project met those requirements. People no longer understand what criteria they are supposed to meet.

I have only given you two examples, but there are a number of other projects waiting your signature before they can go ahead, and before the sponsors can begin working with youth. Meanwhile, teenagers and children are hanging around on the street and are ripe for gang recruiters. Is there an administrative problem or is it that you simply don't believe in prevention?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I presume you want an answer. You have used up most of the time, so we'll give a little chance for a response.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chairman, it is difficult to give an answer based on a particular case. If you send me the specific information, I will try to provide an answer for you. When you say that you heard from my office, are you referring to the minister's office, or the department? It is a little confusing.

I said that a lot of money would be provided, including for Quebec. For example, last November, I was in Quebec and I announced the injection of $10 million for prevention programs that would target youth in particular. In January, I also made an announcement of $356,550 to help aboriginal parents steer their children away from a life of crime. In January, once again, I provided a large sum of money to support the National Crime Prevention Centre.

With all due respect, for every unhappy group that you have mentioned, I can tell you about one that is extremely satisfied.

We don't have enough money to cover all of the requests. However, we do have criteria. The project must be local, because we don't know, here in Ottawa, what all of the requirements might be. It is not up to us to tailor a program to a specific region. Moreover, the program must work. That is why I have one question that I ask about each program: Does it work? What works?

Then we will determine whether or not there is enough money for research.... But I want programs that will work on the ground. I can assure you that there are no programs waiting my signature in my office at this time. However, there are still programs in the departments, and they are awaiting the final review.

Last week I asked the department for a progress report on the Quebec programs. I was told that at least ten are now ready, but they have not yet made their way to my office. I think you will have word on them soon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to pursue that later.

Mr. Hawn, please.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here.

I'd like to cover two or three areas. The first one is that some concerns have been expressed about the use of Canadian seaports by organized crime for exporting stolen vehicles, or to raise funds for terrorist groups such as Hezbollah.

I was wondering—it has come up fairly recently—whether you have a comment on that, or any CBSA reaction to it.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

We've been in discussions with CBSA, and we've also have been putting them together with the major.... We're getting most or a lot of our information now from the major insurance corporations, which have done a lot of the tracking. It's been positive. These are things that are watched for. There's no question that it happens. Stolen vehicles are a problem. There's been some great progress in technology to limit it.

We've seen a number of programs that don't just involve CBSA—you have to move it right back to the streets—that have proved very effective in reducing auto theft, notably a program in Surrey and a program in Richmond. The one program has seen a 31% reduction in one year in auto theft. We want to make it a fully integrated approach, right from the street on down, through to the borders.

You'll see that we've received now some acknowledgment for increase in funds for the RCMP to have a greater presence at the ports. As you know, there was a problem with the former ports police. The ability to track, the ability to survey containers is all on the increase.

Because of concerns raised here at this committee, but also by consumers and the insurance associations, you're going to see those numbers continue to drop. It still happens. The day we totally eliminate all crime will be a wonderful day. I don't know whether you or I will be here to see it.

So there has been some good progress there, and some of it has been due to positive pressure by this committee and others.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I'd like to switch to the area of intelligence. In my view, one of the limitations we have in Canada in terms of national security is the lack of foreign intelligence-gathering capability that we used to have and don't have anymore. I know the government has talked about establishing a Canadian foreign intelligence agency of some sort. I'm wondering whether that's still on the books.

In hopes that the answer is yes, will it be part of a CSIS mandate, or are we looking at a separate organization?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

We looked at it, and we were public about the fact, even in the last federal campaign, that there needed to be increased capacity for Canada to be protected by acquiring foreign intelligence. The two approaches to that were, one, to set up a separate agency, and two, to make some changes in the CSIS Act, to enhance their ability to collect information in certain situations, all according to the law, of course, in foreign fields.

The research we've done, the discussions we've had with a variety of groups, lead us to think that starting a separate agency would not be in our best interests. The cost of that, of course, would be huge. It would be a number of years in process just to get it set up, and it creates the possibility of yet another silo of information storage, which could be difficult, as organizations, just by their nature, are sometimes difficult, as we've seen in the past, with the RCMP and CSIS. I don't think they have that problem now, but in the past they did.

What you're going to see, in our discussions with CSIS and with our other partners on foreign fields, is that we will have the ability to change legislation, subject to obviously what this committee and Parliament says, that will enhance the ability for CSIS to gather information without having to create a separate silo and a separate agency. After some months of looking at it, this is the direction that we believe is the best way to go, and having determined that, we'll be presenting for consideration at some point, whether it's spring or fall, our approach to that, and hopefully get some good advice from this committee on what they think of it.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Okay, thank you. I agree with that approach, personally.

I have another one on the RCMP area, in terms of the $161 million we're spending to get 1,000 more members out there. We're at 241 right now, and it's a good start—

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

And the $161 million is just for the first two years.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Correct. There has been concern expressed about lack of experience or a decreased experience level in the RCMP, and of course part of it is just undermanning and so on and part of it is early retirements or recruiting not keeping up. This isn't a hard date sort of thing, but what's our feeling in terms of when the experience levels will be back up to something that the RCMP, the commissioner, would be—

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Turner.

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

This line of questioning has now gone six minutes on a five-minute round. We're now going to go into an answer from the minister that is going to take us at least another three minutes. Do we have five-minute time? I'm new to this committee, so excuse my interruption. Is five minutes not five minutes, or is it 10 minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You may be new to this committee, but your time piece is also way out of whack, and so is your intervention. I'm sorry.

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Why is that, sir?