Public Safety Committee on May 15th, 2007

[Don Demers, Acting Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada]

I'm a bit perplexed. It's under page 65. It's under the capital spending table, if I'm correct here, in terms of what it is that you are referring to. So they are basically referring to reductions in capital spending related to our major program activities in terms of care and custody and rehabilitation and case management.

I don't have offhand the specifics—

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Perhaps, Mr. Chair, we could get that information in writing, as opposed to wasting the time here at committee.

Right now, I would like to have some other questions answered, specifically on harm reduction. I would like to know what the harm reduction strategy is of this government and if this new government is going to utilize within the Correctional Services a harm reduction strategy, if any.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Day, I understand you wanted to respond to the earlier question.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I don't think Ms. Barnes' question was a waste of time. I just want to make sure we get the exact one. Was it on page 65?

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Pages 64 and 65 on the RCMP, 2007-08...I got this out of the Correctional Services.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I have it here.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

And the question was not a waste of time; it was a waste of time getting to the answer, so I'll take it in writing.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Okay. I'm trying to maintain a good spirit of collegiality here. We have a lot of documents and we're rushing to them as quickly as we can. We'll get that answer to you.

Harm reduction is something that is pursued in the corrections system. There's always the balance between wanting to make sure the laws are followed, wanting to make sure we discourage drug use in the facilities themselves.... Along with that, programs are shared with the prisoners related to cleaning of the type of paraphernalia that some might want to use; cleaning materials are prepared for.... Again, you're trying to maintain this balance. You don't want to have drug use happening. We do everything we can to keep it from happening, but we do provide programs that talk about how to maintain safe practices. We do provide extensive programming in terms of drug substitution. For instance, there's a very aggressive methadone program that is available, and with that there are counselling sessions that would be specifically tailored to an individual's particular needs, all geared towards harm reduction.

Those programs are fully engaged and in many cases fully applied. Now, offenders themselves cannot be forced to take them, but we find the uptake on them is fairly good. And there are a number of harm reduction programs in place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Barnes, you don't have any more time. You're a minute and a half over already.

Mr. Minister, if you would just wrap it up, then we'll move over to the Bloc.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I need a clarification, Mr. Chair.

My understanding in the budget is that your government was moving to a new harm reduction. Is that not true? Are you continuing with harm reduction in your policy?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Absolutely.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you. That's all I needed to know.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

We give very clear instruction on how to reduce risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Ménard, go ahead.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, I want to start with an important matter which does not involve a great deal of money. After the Dawson College tragedy, I have suggested that you create a reporting website for people who would happen upon sites of individuals like Kimveer Gill, the Dawson College killer.

Have you created one? Do you still think it is a good idea? If it has been created, does it work well?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It is a good idea. We encourage this type of thing, especially within organizations. among professors or people working in the health care field, for instance, because it is important for options to be offered to people who have concerns about some individuals.

First of all, 911 may be used. Reporting may be a problem when there is an issue of trust and safety for individuals. The bill which has to do with a registry will give people more avenues to share that type of concern.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

From your answer I understand the site has not been set up. I do not want to dwell on the subject, but I would like to remind you once again that the Sûreté du Québec has confirmed that the pedophilia site works well. One could assume that the type of reporting site I am suggesting to you would also work well. It would be good for you to look into it again.

On another note, I think you have offered a second amnesty to people having to register their long guns. I would like to know whether previously registered long guns will remain in the system.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The RCMP continues to update the files of people on the registry. It is important to note that the Auditor General stated that this information is not very reliable because for a number of years many mistakes and omissions had been made. It is up to the RCMP to decide whether it wants to use this information.

We will continue to maintain the registry for all men and women who own firearms, of all types. Even if it is a long gun which is not restricted, the fact that the person owns it is recorded in the system. Police officers approaching a house and wanting to know whether a resident has a firearm may obtain this information. With respect to specific information on long guns, it is up to the RCMP to take that decision.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

From what I understand, Ms. Busson will remain after you've left. I will be able to ask her a few questions. In the meantime we could discuss other matters.

I know how disruptive a public inquiry or even a real royal commission of inquiry can be for an organization. However, it is not a way to charge certain people, but rather an opportunity to find solutions. Over the last few years, a number of things have gone wrong at the RCMP. Of course, I'm thinking of the Arar case, but I'm also thinking of the very troubling revelations that have come out regarding the relationship which existed between CSIS and the RCMP before the Air India flight bombing occurred. I'm also thinking of the pension fund issue, etc.

We've noticed that regarding some types of crimes, the RCMP clearly did not have the needed staff to ensure adequate screening. I think that in a general sense, the RCMP does excellent work. I would however get back to the idea of an external review, to look into possible new missions for the RCMP and to assess the way it does its work.

Do you not think the time has come to set up an actual royal commission of inquiry? I know the NDP made that suggestion yesterday. I can honestly say that were it not for the events which have affected us, we probably would have done the same.

I will however take advantage of this opportunity to ask you whether the time has come, in your opinion, to conduct a comprehensive review of the RCMP within the framework of an actual royal commission of inquiry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It would be good to leave a little time for the response.

Go ahead, Mr. Minister.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I do indeed know that investigations have shown that there were problems within this organization. All organizations of this size experience this kind of problems. You mentioned the relationship between CSIS and the RCMP. As you know, they signed an agreement last fall which would, pursuant to legislation, ensure information is accessible without impediments. We've noticed a clear improvement in that relationship, especially following the Arar case. It served to somewhat raise the alarm as to the existence of problems.

I have more confidence now when I speak to the commissioner or to Mr. Judd. Since Canada's new government took office, following the January 2006 elections, there has been a noted improvement in the relationship between CSIS and the RCMP. Of course, there are problems, but we are currently investigating. I hope to receive a report by June. We will then be able to say whether the issues are significant enough to justify a complete investigation. I hope that by June, there will be a new commissioner. I believe that the report, the ongoing investigations and the specific investigation I called for will give us an opportunity to make some changes. It would be an ideal time for the new commissioner.

Give us an opportunity to see whether it is possible to immediately make major changes. We can then look into whether more substantial changes are needed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I would ask questioners to allow some time for the answers, because we're going over time here.

Mr. Comartin, please.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

We just much prefer to hear ourselves talk, Mr. Chair, as obviously does the minister as well.

Mr. Minister, thank you for being here.

Let me cover off a couple of points.

I don't know how many times I've asked you and your predecessors from the prior government about the oversight committee. Let me just make a statement. It's just not acceptable that it's taken this long. When we see what came out of both Justice O'Connor's and previous looks at the Air India situation, the crying need for a parliamentary oversight committee is so apparent, and further delay is really unconscionable.

I don't want a comment back; that was just a statement.

With regard to the gun registry and the money being spent, the Auditor General made it very clear that it wasn't just the long-gun registry that had real problems with its data because of data entry problems, and more extensively because of the attempt to merge two systems together. Those two systems were the long-gun registry and the hand gun and illegal gun registry; the systemic problems with accuracy of data apply to both.

The Auditor General came out with that report well over a year ago, close to a year and a half ago now. Has anything been done to improve the quality of the data—I know your party's position with regard to the long-gun registry—at least with regard to the hand guns and the illegal guns?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

First, Chairman, in fairness, I realize you didn't want a comment back, but you can't just toss a grenade at me and ask me to hold on to it.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But I've asked so many other times, Mr. Minister, and we haven't had any progress, so I thought that was fair.