Public Safety Committee on June 5th, 2007

[Barry Swadron]

No, and my point is still valid. From my point of view, I would say that even 90% of the main people sounds very high to me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

All right. Does anybody else from the government have a question? No.

I don't have anyone else on my list, other than Mr. Comartin. You had another question.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Swadron, I practised law for a long time, so I know what I'm asking at this point and I don't know if you're prepared to disclose this to the committee.

Given what we heard from Mr. Kennedy, who is the head of the RCMP complaints agency, it would be very helpful if we had actual numbers of the individuals who have come in to complain to you about the program, how many lawsuits you have actually started against the RCMP, and how many of those lawsuits have now been completed successfully.

Again, I don't know if you're prepared to divulge that. I understand you may not want to, but it would be very helpful for this committee.

[Barry Swadron]

Okay, when you say “completed successfully”, I am not sure what that means. Does it mean that there was an award? Sometimes we might resolve it by saying that they get new identities. Say the RCMP was refusing to give a new identity, or refusing to relocate the person; I might broker a deal that the RCMP will pay for re-education for a year, provide accommodation for six months etc. Is that successful? I might have been asking—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm quite prepared, Mr. Swadron, to let you judge whether they were successful or not.

[Barry Swadron]

Being a lawyer, I want to say that all my cases are successful.

Well, they haven't all been against the RCMP. There have been some against the Province of Ontario, and let me tell you that people who are involved with the RCMP have to be involved with the Province of Ontario and vice versa. If the RCMP wants to get a new birth certificate or a driver's licence or a health card, they have to come to the province. And if the province needs to get income tax clearance, or change a SIN number, they have to go to the RCMP. So there is often blended involvement.

I would say that we're very successful in the sense that when we get too close and the RCMP or the province think they are going to get burned, they settle. They resolve the cases because they don't want to wash their linen in public, whether it's dirty or not.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You've been very successful up to this point, Mr. Swadron, in not answering whether you're prepared to give us a declaration.

[Barry Swadron]

It's very difficult to answer that, because there are many people who have consulted me and I didn't take their case. I might get calls from British Columbia or from Nova Scotia, where it's not practical. But they're complaining about the treatment that they've received from the RCMP, for example.

How many have we taken? How many files have we opened up? You could certainly count them on your fingers, if you had four hands. That's a number.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There are days when I need more hands, Mr. Swadron.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just let me say, though, if you wish to respond further to that, you can do so in writing to the committee.

And to both of you, are you aware of any cases in Canada where an individual who was under the program was sued, along with a police force, for wrongful death?

[Barry Swadron]

No, I'm not aware of any.

[Tom Bulmer]

I'm not aware either.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

There was no one else on my list.

If there are no further questions, we will thank you, witnesses, very much for coming and giving us the information you have and your perspective on this Witness Protection Program Act. We thank you very, very much.

This meeting stands adjourned.