Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2006

[Keith Coulter, Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada]

I don't have the number with me today. We could get you that information, if you want.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you.

Is that all for me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, your time is up.

We now move to five-minute rounds.

Mr. Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too want to welcome the minister and his colleagues. I share the view of the minister that, as he put it, he is assisted by dedicated, hard-working people who are committed to the protection of our safety and security. We share that characterization.

Recently, Mr. Chairman, the CSIS deputy director, Jack Hooper, told a Senate committee that CSIS was able to screen only 10% of immigrants coming to Canada from the region of Pakistan and Afghanistan. The quote was: “We're in a position to vet one-tenth of those.” When asked if that meant CSIS was not satisfied about the 90% of immigrants coming from that region, Mr. Hooper replied, “Correct.”

Shortly thereafter, Minister, in a letter to the Sun Media, you asserted that CSIS screens 100% of the immigrants referred to the intelligence agency. Can you explain the apparent contradiction between your remarks and those of Mr. Hooper?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes, I welcome the opportunity to do that, as I did in the letter that you just referenced.

I was concerned that subsequent media reports were giving the perception that of all the people arriving on our shores, only 10% were getting any kind of screening. In fact, 100% of all individuals who arrive here in Canada--100% of them--are screened in some way, right from the point of their arrival. Of that entire group, there are a couple of groups that CSIS looks at--first of all, those who are applying for and requesting permanent resident status. CSIS looks at 100% of those individuals.

Also, there are times when, for a variety of reasons, a particular Border Services officer or some other officer may have a concern and wants further screening to take place by CSIS. Of those who are referred to CSIS for further screening, they do 100%.

Those two groupings right there represent about 10% of all the people who are arriving.

So we want to just make it clear that it's 100%. Nobody just arrives in Canada and waltzes through a gate without being looked at in some way, shape, or form. The 10% figure gives you an idea of what percentage of all those arriving here are looked at by CSIS. One hundred percent of these are looked at by CSIS.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I would pursue this line of questioning, but I want to ask another question. With limited time, I will go to the second question.

CSIS has both a limited foreign intelligence mandate and a security intelligence mandate. In recent years the security intelligence mandate has been interpreted to allow it more latitude to engage in activities outside of Canada, activities that appear to be more than just liaison with other similar agencies for limited purposes. Recently it was stated that CSIS may have as many of 50 of its staff engaged in activities outside of Canada.

Can you describe for us the mandate of CSIS with respect to its activities outside of Canada and include what types of activities it engages in as part of this mandate? Second, are there procedures in place requiring approval by the director and the minister for such activities outside of Canada?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

First, I'll obviously not get into operational details, for obvious security reasons. The director may be at liberty to put out certain numbers, and I'll leave that up to his discretion.

On the broad question, right now under the CSIS Act, CSIS, its employees and its agents, can acquire and gather information outside of Canada if it is directly affecting Canada. Anything that is gathered, anything that is accumulated, is done according to the CSIS Act and according to all of the laws and provisions that we have. Information that is gathered and requires extra capability, anything that is done along those lines, is also done within the act, within the law, respecting what Canadians would value in terms of privacy, human rights, and elements related to that.

Clearly, whether we're talking about CSIS or the RCMP, or various policing forces--though I wouldn't be responsible for, say, the municipal forces directly--when it comes to intelligence gathering and certain types of surveillance, certain types of invasive procedures, all have to be signed off by me and also by a Federal Court judge--the reasons for it, the length of time that certain provisions and certain capabilities will be required--and those are subject to review and subject to Canadian law.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ms. Freeman, for five minutes.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

As you know, the government has tabled Bill C-9 in the House, which deals mainly with conditional sentencing. Minister Day would like to do away with the option that judges have to impose conditional sentences. According to Justice officials, this measure would affect 15,000 people in Canada right now, of whom one third would be expected to go to jail immediately because of the special conditions of their house arrest. Can you tell me to what extent the Correctional Service is prepared to deal with the bill if it is passed? How much would this cost?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

That is an interesting question, since there are experts who can give us their estimate of the increase that would result in the number of criminals and people affected by the change in the law. It is difficult to come up with an accurate estimate, since we do not know whether these changes will affect how criminals think. We are aware, however, that we will see an increase in the number of people incarcerated as a result of this change. That is why the estimates include funding to build another medium security institution and more maximum security institutions if necessary. As I mentioned, the exact number is difficult to estimate. We will be looking into it, and I certainly hope that we will see a decrease in the number of people wanting to commit crimes over time. If that does not happen, if there is no decrease and we see an increase, we will be prepared to build more institutions using this funding.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

If I understand your answer correctly, if this bill were passed immediately, 5,000 people out of 15,000 would already be affected. As a result, you are not prepared to deal with these 5,000 people in your correctional institutions right now. You are prepared to earmark funding, but these 5,000 people may not be incarcerated. You would not be able to enforce—

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It is not just in the prisons where we will see an increase. After people get out of prison, there are other ways in the community to serve them. That is why it is difficult to give an estimate.

We are confident that, with this funding and professionals, we will be able to provide services for criminals and communities.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Very well.

I would like to ask two other questions, if I have time. Do I have more than one minute left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

One minute.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I have one question for Mr. Jim Judd, but I am afraid that he will tell me that it is a security question and that he cannot answer me, once again.

I will go to a question that Mr. Day will surely be able to answer.

Nine RCMP detachments in Quebec were closed. Can you tell me whether they will be opened, when that will happen and how?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Two weeks ago, I met with—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

—the mayors of municipalities?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes. I asked them what pressures they were under, what their concerns were and what they wanted to have done. I noted down what they told me and I explained to them that I would look into this with the RCMP to see how we could deal with their concerns. I am in the process of doing that. I received the information from the mayors and I made a promise—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Yes, because the mayors are very keen.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes, they are very keen. I am pleased to see that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll have to move over to Mr. Hawn.

Thank you.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Minister, for being here. I also with to thank the other witnesses for attending.

I would like to ask you some questions on intelligence gathering in security, police and military operations.

Good information is key to the success of any operation.

Specifically on CSIS, right now there are 2,449 members. I'm interested in how big it used to be and how big you see it becoming with the addition, hopefully, in my view, of some robust foreign intelligence capability.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

In terms of how large it will get, there are some combining pressures there. The director obviously brings the needs to government and what he sees as being the requirements for the future. Some of that will obviously be determined by the final resolution of the question in terms of increasing foreign intelligence capacity: do we go with expanding the capacity of CSIS itself or do we look at the formation of a new agency? That will depend on the input from this committee and the input from our fellow parliamentarians. It's difficult to make that kind of prediction until parliamentarians have made a collective decision on which way we're going.

I'll also ask the director if he can reflect on growth over the years, where it's been--you've already mentioned the FTEs today--and where he sees it going. Of course, he knows that his request for more resources always falls on very interested ears, but the guarantee of receiving all those in their total fulfillment is another issue.

[Jim Judd, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Just let me check my numbers, if I could, Mr. Chairman.

To give you an idea of the change in size, 15 years ago the organization had about 2,750 people; five years ago, pre-9/11, it hit a low of 2,000; and post-9/11 it has grown by about 300 personnel.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

With what's been going on recently--and obviously the recent operation was a success, thanks to the organizations we have here--do you see any changes in the coordination of intelligence between the RCMP, CSIS, local police forces, foreign intelligence services, military intelligence? There are a lot of people who need to be touched in all those things to get a complete picture. With what we've learned in the last little while--and I'm not just talking about last weekend--do you see any changes, and without getting into classified information, what those changes might be?