Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2008

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Are there any statistics on the number of injuries or deaths as a result of CEW use? Can we get any statistics on that?

[Sgt Richard Groulx]

As I said, we've been working a lot harder for about the last two years on gathering statistics. Our statistics only focus on the RCMP. What we're trying to get is the whole breadth of Canadian statistics, from every police force throughout Canada, in order to better assist the use, not only of the conductive energy weapon, but also of pepper spray, the nightstick, or any other response device.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

We learnt that a member of the RCMP who was responsible for providing training was paid by Taser International. Can you confirm this assertion?

[Sgt Richard Groulx]

Could you repeat the question, please?

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

We learnt that a member of the RCMP who was responsible for training was paid by Taser International. Can you confirm or deny this assertion?

[Sgt Richard Groulx]

I'm not at all aware of that. He's not with the RCMP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Does anyone else...?

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Isn't he?

[Sgt Richard Groulx]

No, he isn't.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I see. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Priddy, please, for seven minutes.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you, everyone, for being here and for your presentations.

I'm wondering, Mr. Chair, if it's possible to get the presentations from those individuals who were not able to provide them ahead of time, because there was some interesting information provided.

It's nice to see people from Surrey. I've actually sat at this table a number of times, and coming from the largest city that's served by the RCMP, we're very pleased by that.

My first question is about data collection. I heard your acknowledgement that it has been quite a patchwork, if you will, in the past across the country in terms of how it's used and when it's used, so you're working at collecting that kind of data.

Here's my question, and I don't know what the answer to this is and I hope you will help me. I don't know how many taser reviews are going on--and that would be something interesting too, Mr. Chair, if it's possible to provide that to us, because there must be six, seven, eight, nine. I have no idea of the number of taser reviews going on across the country by provincial police forces, by individual cities, by whomever. We're going to have the work you're doing and we're going to have the work they're doing. I'm interested as to how all of that work comes together in a way that brings some consistency, not only to the collection of statistics but to protocols that are used and to outcomes from the use of tasers.

I know that in 2005 there was a B.C. review, and I see that the attorney general, Mr. Oppal, has now ordered another review of tasers. So again, this patchwork of review going on across the country concerns me, in terms of how we bring that together in the most cogent, coherent way, so that people across the country know that we are keeping statistics in the same way, that the protocols are the same, that the response to individuals is the same, that the medical responses are the same, or that there's been research that says this is how it should be done.

How do you see all of that information coming together?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

If I may, Mr. Chair, that's an excellent question. We have had the same discussions, both in an official form and also over cups of coffee on many mornings. At last count we had at least nine, and it's probably up to eleven now, as far as the number we'd use is concerned, or studies, or however you want to depict it.

So yes, I would agree that is a concern.

I think we're well on our way to getting some format or singularity to it with the employment of the Canadian Police Research Centre and the engagement of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. And of course the study that's being done by the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP is helping in that vein as well. So I think there will be, just by a matter of default, some singularity--I hope--of those studies.

On your question relative to statistics, we collected all of the taser deployments in the RCMP, with the exception of a short period of time, probably six or eight months. And I agree with the finding of the interim report by CPC. We had the data right in our shop here in Ottawa; all the taser reports came in. We didn't have an appropriate database to do any form of data mining or analysis or what not.

I have to just pause for one second here. If Constable Jones uses a taser tonight, that is reviewed by his or her shift supervisor, reviewed by the detachment commander, can be reviewed by the district officer, could be reviewed by the criminal operations officer, and finally it goes into headquarters, into Inspector Lightfoot's shop. So there is a step process as far as review is concerned. We need to tighten it up, and we are tightening it up considerably. But every taser deployment was captured on a piece of paper and in a binder, for all intents and purposes.

We are moving right now through the subject behaviour database that we're building now. We will have a process so that we can go in and find out how many happened at night, how many happened with members with between three and six years' service--we'll be able to find that type of thing out. What we have to be able to do is look at the overview--and I'm talking about just in the RCMP now--for trends and concerns and then make appropriate changes.

Back when I arrived in Ottawa--going back seven or eight years ago--from an old detachment commander job, I found that there were a lot of things that were missing: member-involved shootings, in-custody death, and what we call EVOs--emergency vehicle operations or pursuits. You have to get that information, put it in a pile, and be able to do some analysis. We are doing that, and we'll do that with the taser.

The next step, through CPRC--and I point over here--and the CACP is to get all police departments to use that SB/OR form so that we can look at trends nationally, not just by jurisdiction.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I have two quick ones, if I might.

One thing is statistics. The other is a narrative, if you will, that goes with the statistics about what kind of training the person has, what the outcome was, where it was on the body, etc. There is a variety of narrative that goes with that that would give you that kind of information. Do you have an expectation that there would be some standard way that people would collect that information, other than just on the number of times it's been deployed?

Secondly, would you expect a standard medical response to the client who has been tasered to come out of this? There's been great discussion about positioning. I know there's still discussion about whether prone positioning is going to create difficulties for people; some people still think it is. I did hear you say after a tasering...be seated in a chair.

And the other part of that is around cardiac arrhythmia. A certain percentage of the population has cardiac arrhythmia at any given time--8% or 9%, something like that. So I am interested in whether there will be a standardized medical protocol as well for what is done at the time. I know some people call EMS before they use the taser. Some might put a cardiac monitor on right away, because if you don't, you're not going to know if somebody is in cardiac arrhythmia.

Would you anticipate that coming out of this as well?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

Yes, absolutely.

On the standardized format question, that's exactly where we're going with the SB/OR report. It will be standardized so that there will be check-off boxes or a narrative portion on that form. Please remember, we're not looking just at CEW. When we enact this form, our goal is that any kind of intervention or any kind of use of force that a member of the RCMP, and hopefully across the board, utilizes, deploys, will be captured as well. So we will be able to use baton usage, for example. That's where we want to go.

On the standardized medical response, yes is the short answer. The long answer is we don't just police in Surrey; we are in Grise Fiord, Davis Inlet, and places such as that--

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Yes, I understand that.

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

So if the policy says, for example, you will have an ambulance standing by prior to the use of a CEW, that's simply not possible in some locations where we police. But our policies will be standardized enough that there will be latitude and room in there so the member understands that when something is used such as a CEW, they must as soon as practicable get medical attention for that individual.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you. What was the date on which you think this will be completed?

[A/Commr Darrell LaFosse]

The SB/OR report?

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

All of it, the template, the whole thing.

[Insp Troy Lightfoot]

We're looking at seven to eight months down the road for SB/OR, but I must comment that we do have a standard practice in terms of our response with EMS. It is the policy that, where possible, when available, we will call EMS. So there is some standardization now. But as the assistant commissioner mentioned, we work in so many diverse communities that we cannot say there will be an ambulance that will go. So we have to leave it flexible but still have a protocol that allows for EMS, emergency services, to attend when able.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

We do see it happen in cities, where they're not called. It is available but not called.

[Insp Troy Lightfoot]

Yes. I think what happens is just that, as Richard said earlier, these are dynamic situations and you're taking in a lot of information at the time. You're trying to get the appropriate information to determine what's going on.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I think what Ms. Priddy asked for is beyond the record of what we would get from this meeting, the reports. I'm not sure if you can provide them to us. Some of you condensed your presentations. If you would be willing to provide us the full presentation, give it to the clerk of the committee, and then it will get translated and dispersed to the committee.

I'm interpreting what you probably requested.