Public Safety Committee on June 4th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I realize not everyone is here, but I'd like to bring this meeting to order anyway. We are the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting number 34, and we're continuing our study of contraband tobacco.

Because of the events in the House of Commons and the votes that have taken place, this will be an abbreviated session. I'll be hoping that opening remarks, which generally take about 10 minutes--and you can still take 10 minutes if you wish, as witnesses, to do that, but it may allow for more opportunities for questions and comments if you can condense your remarks somewhat.

What we're going to do is allow the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake to go first, then the Assembly of First Nations, the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador, the Centre for Nation Building, and the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne. That's the order you have come up with yourselves.

I would appreciate it if you would introduce yourself before you begin your remarks and just explain what your position is within your organization.

The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake can go ahead and start. Thank you.

Go ahead, sir.

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle, Grand Chief, Mohawk Council of Kahnawake]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the standing committee.

I acknowledge our elders, as well as my colleagues, who are here today to address you. For legal questions, I'd like to introduce Christine Zachary-Deom, my head legal representative.

On behalf of the Mohawk territory of Kahnawake, located near Montreal on the south shore of the St. Lawrence River, I, Grand Chief Michael Delisle Jr., will submit the following presentation that provides the position of my council and my community regarding the so-called contraband tobacco manufacturing industry on our territory.

It is interesting that the RCMP-issued document, “2008 Contraband Tobacco Enforcement Strategy”, was released with little notification to the profiled communities and without any consultation with Kahnawake at all. When I say “profiled communities”, I am relating to the criminalization of my community in the process even before your standing committee hearings took place. Profiling communities has a negative connotation to it, and it is not complimentary to us. We resent the effects of our continued criminalization in the mainstream media.

At this time, it is Kahnawake's opportunity to respond to the statements contained within the document, while prefacing the preview with historical commentary linking our spiritual connection to tobacco, integral trade practices with European delegates, and the continuance of nation-to-nation trade of tobacco products currently manufactured within Kahnawake and other territories. It is my intent to provide the substantial and accurate context that will culminate in an overview of the contraband tobacco enforcement strategy. I will start with a brief historical overview.

Both before and since European contact with my ancestors on Turtle Island, there has been a rich and distinct trade history that resulted in the unrivalled control of the eastern seaboard by the Iroquois Confederacy, of which the Mohawks are the eastern nation. Primarily the Dutch, British, and French settlers participated in trade relations with the Mohawks for a variety of goods, with tobacco being of primary importance in the colonial era.

A treaty relationship between colonial governments and the Mohawks was a device to further settlement and geographic expansion for the colonists. The necessity for trade with the Mohawks was crucial for European survival. Later on, as allies of the crown, the Mohawks generally, and Mohawks of Kahnawake specifically, entered wars on behalf of the French and British crowns. Our men have given their lives in service to the crown, and we were respected for our abilities. In modern times, our community has provided service men and women in the forces of both Canada and the United States.

My community has had a varied economic history, from a successful fur trade monopoly in the 1600s, to subsistence and commercial agriculture in the 1900s, including the cultivation of tobacco. These were important sources of economic vitality. We've lived through the seigneurial land tenure system under the French regime and the subsequent reservation system under the British and Canadian regimes. These experiences forever changed our historical land base, reduced our economic opportunities, and hindered our prosperity within our land. They did not stop our strong will to survive.

Once government policy had eroded our land base, the Kahnawake were forced to seek employment within the carpentry and ironworking industries. Many a city skyline can identify buildings erected by Mohawk ingenuity, in the drive to build a better life for our families, better opportunities for our children, and security in our future. For over 100 years, Kahnawake men have had to travel long distances to support their families, away from them for weeks at a time. Sometimes they took the families with them--away from home, away from what they knew. The ironworking industry remained the primary source of income for Kahnawake families throughout the 20th century.

By the 1980s, economic recession in the United States had limited the number of jobs available in the industries identified with my community. The travellers had become weary, wanting an opportunity to prosper while remaining in our community. It was by that time that the cigarette industry was born. An ill-advised and poorly executed raid on Kahnawake cigarette stores occurred in June of 1988. The intent was to end the retail tobacco trade and force my community to participate in an economy more acceptable to Canada.

It was commonly asserted by government and media sources that the “contraband cigarette industry” was taking tax profits away from hard-working Canadians and contributing to the demise of Canadian cigarette manufacturers and retailers outside Mohawk territory.

Many years later it became known that Canadian and American cigarette conglomerates helped, and in some instances orchestrated, the contraband cigarette industry by using the geographical location of Mohawk communities to perpetuate the industry. Ironically, Kahnawake’s location had again resulted in economic prosperity for the community and participation in the control of a profitable industry, along with sister Mohawk communities.

When the potential for expansion and the necessary diversification of the industry became inevitable, tobacco manufacturing became the primary focus. This focus is not intended to disregard the multitude of debilitating social effects that continue to affect my community directly, resulting from colonization and policy implementation that prioritized the elimination of any trace of Mohawk traditions, language, and identity.

As I stand before you, Kahnawake’s economic prosperity, rich social and family values, and maintenance of our traditional heritage and legacies demonstrate the strength and perseverance handed down from our ancestors.

The policies did not succeed, the reservation system did not succeed, the residential schools did not succeed, and any attempt at economic strangulation will not succeed either.

At this point, I will focus this presentation on the “2008 Contraband Tobacco Enforcement Strategy”. Due to time restrictions, I'll only identify key concerns with the document and provide insight into Kahnawake’s position.

In the preface to the document, William J.S. Elliott, Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, states:

While it is always difficult to draw the line at the number of individuals and groups to speak with, the RCMP feels that it has developed its first Contraband Tobacco Enforcement Strategy from a sampling of diverse views across the country.

In my opening comments I referred to a lack of consultation with the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake and my community in general. This isn’t the first time the Mohawks of Kahnawake have appeared before a standing committee, and it's not the first time we will talk about lack of consultation by the federal government and my community.

In addition, as the leaders of the community, the MCK was not officially informed of the hearings with regard to the document in question. As Kahnawake is prominently featured in the report, it is irresponsible of the hearing organizers to omit an invitation to Kahnawake.

As identified in the executive summary, the definition of contraband tobacco is

any tobacco product that does not comply with the provisions of all applicable federal and provincial statutes. This includes importation, stamping, marking, manufacturing, distributing and payment of duties and taxes.

Again, the term “contraband tobacco” refers to your government’s perception of the products manufactured and the industry itself. There is no mention of the direct and tangible benefits the industry generates for my community, the employment opportunities and subsequent economic boost in both the retail and service industries for local business expansion, and to businesses in the surrounding communities.

For many employed within the industry, it's an opportunity to participate in an economy and provide support for their families, which may not have been readily available before. The pride and integrity associated with economic independence cannot be measured, only demonstrated through the contribution to the economic and social stability of my community. The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake will continue to support an economic activity that provides social stability for our families.

Throughout the document, it generalizes that the Mohawks of Kahnawake are, as a group, linked to gangsterism and organized crime. It is my responsibility to speak on behalf of the law-abiding, income-earning, and family-oriented community members who are the majority of Kahnawà:kero:non.

The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake has and will continue to be committed to providing a safe community by supporting our Kahnawake peacekeepers to do their jobs, conduct investigations, and cooperate, when necessary, with outside forces to combat organized crime in Kahnawake. The negative effects of the industry are only one side of the story.

It is also maintained in the document that Canadian law enforcement agencies are responsible for “decreasing the upward trend of the illicit market”. It states further:

It will be important to monitor efforts undertaken in this strategy as the current environment evolves, successes are achieved, and new challenges emerge.

It is easy to speculate what this statement may mean, but it does not address the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake’s responsibility for continued efforts to monitor and regulate the manufacturing industry on our territory.

We will continue to discuss the issues affecting the industry with key stakeholders both directly and indirectly associated with our local tobacco industry. Initiatives such as the parliamentary hearings serve to undermine the progress that has been made to ensure the industry is subject to internal laws and regulation.

Finally, it is stated in the document that efforts are being made to engage in ongoing consultations with leaders, i.e. councils, and the local police in key communities where the RCMP feel there is the highest level of interest in discussing the issue of tobacco, and with the Assembly of First Nations to better understand and develop a constructive way forward. This has not been the case in Kahnawake.

Reference is made within a document to a now defunct entity that attempted to enforce regulation and authority on Kahnawake's tobacco industry without success. The Mohawk Council of Kahnawake has remained consistent in its position that if the industry is to remain and continue to grow and flourish, legislation and regulation are necessary to ensure the best interests of all community members.

In my conclusion, I will reiterate the position that Canada and Kahnawake must jointly identify and address all issues surrounding the tobacco industry in Kahnawake. Kahnawake has always placed the maintenance of a strong relationship on diplomatic interaction between us. It is in everyone's best interest to maintain good relationships through consistent discussion and respect. We remind you that the Mohawk community of Kahnawake has a strong belief in the creation and maintenance of intergovernmental relationships.

Unilateral statements made by Canada through its enforcement agencies that vilify my people are not the best examples of relationship growth. In spite of this, Kahnawake continues to extend an invitation to Canada to fulfill the obligations created in our historical and enduring treaty relationship.

To repeat, these are the points I have made.

One, there has been no consultation with Kahnawake, which is of paramount importance to any discussions with us, and yet you profile my community relentlessly in the media.

Two, the criminalization of my people has to stop. This leads me to state that historically there was a recognition of Kahnawake's ability and authority to deal with our people, our land, and our laws. It's time for Canada and Kahnawake to renew our historic relationship so that solutions to these troubling issues can be harmonized between us. In this environment we can expect positive outcomes. The alternative is something we don't wish to consider.

These are my words.

Torewanigan [Witness speaks in native language]

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much. We appreciate that presentation.

We will now go to the Assembly of First Nations, please.

[Richard Jock, Chief Executive Officer, Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you. I am Richard Jock, the chief executive officer of the Assembly of First Nations. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to present to you today. I would also like to acknowledge my colleagues on the panel.

My presentation will really be focused on two solutions or ideas in terms of dealing with the tobacco issue: first, the creation of viable economic alternatives; and second, supporting a continuum of approaches in order to cut demand for tobacco in first nations communities.

My discussion of economic opportunities will be both general and focused on the issue at hand. In general, I would state that the capacity and ability of first nations to explore economic opportunities is in large part dependent on the ability to develop relationships and partnerships with various aspects of both the Canadian state and the private sector.

In just looking at one sector, Canada's resource sector, it has really a tremendous future in store for it, in that we know the current projections of the federal government are that approximately $300 billion in new developments will occur in largely first nations territories, or adjacent to first nations territories, in the next 10 years.

Therefore, looking at the general concept of resource revenue sharing, developing effective partnerships with first nations in terms of the sectors I mentioned earlier will result in effective and sustainable first nations economies. These approaches are really forward looking, but don't deal with some of the sectors that are already well developed. These really represent options economically to tobacco trade and reliance on the tobacco trade.

I think if we look at the successful example of the Victor Diamond Mine and developments with the Attawapiskat First Nation in Ontario, this is where it will be effective, in that the mine will create hundreds of jobs, will result in more than a decade of employment, and will make a significant contribution to the economies of Canada, Ontario, and obviously the first nations of that territory. So first nations are very interested in developing such effective and sustainable partnerships and arrangements.

This is embodied in the Assembly of First Nations economic blueprint, one that has broad engagement from first nations across the country. Other options include developing economic alternatives such as supporting entrepreneurship and ensuring quality education and opportunities for training--that these are available.

More focused on the issue at hand is the concept that there should be direct programs of economic replacement. One consideration would be to look at the program of the 1980s, where Agriculture Canada paid Canadian tobacco farmers to switch to alternative crops. In addition, there are a number of agricultural subsidies, ranging from 65% to 85%, depending on how you calculate that, in terms of supporting diversification of opportunity for the agricultural sector. We submit that there should be a similar program developed that could result in a similar focus in terms of engaging in other business areas of activity and encouraging those in communities where it is desirable to reduce reliance on the tobacco trade.

Perhaps one concept would be to have a well-known economist, somebody like David Dodge, the former Governor of the Bank of Canada, study what would be some relevant and appropriate economic measures in support of communities that wish to pursue these options.

Developing viable economic alternatives to the tobacco trade is one way of reducing tobacco sales.

The other solution is really to reduce the demand for tobacco. I think it's pretty clear that across the country we're all aware of the health risks associated with smoking. However, it still remains that first nations smoking rates are three times the Canadian average, with rates as high as 61% among young women aged 15 to 17. Yet the first nations and Inuit tobacco control program that began in April 2001, which was successful in decreasing the uptake of smoking among youth, was terminated by the federal government in September 2006. To us, this is really not understandable, especially since the first nations and Inuit tobacco control program was the only part of the larger federal tobacco control strategy that was cut.

In spite of this, I would like to refer to a recent survey of 223 first nations health directors that shows that communities are doing their part to cut tobacco misuse. In fact, 76% have reported that their community has restrictions against smoking in public places, and 54% said they have activities aimed at encouraging members to become smoke-free.

Despite these efforts, first nations people are less knowledgeable about the risks associated with smoking than are other Canadians and know little about how to assist smokers to quit. It's obvious from this survey that there's insufficient information and material about tobacco cessation in their communities.

In closing, I'd like to say that the approaches that should be considered by this committee should be broad-spectrum in approach, that there be consideration of economic development and economic replacement as part of the strategy, and, further, that the demand side of the equation in terms of reducing the demand for tobacco will not only resolve health issues in the long term but will also reduce interest in buying the tobacco itself.

Last, I want to conclude by saying that the issues involving first nations really must be dealt with by working with first nations. I think we've heard an important call for that from the Grand Chief of Kahnawake, that imposed solutions have been repeatedly shown not to work.

As a final comment, I was a bit surprised to see that the AFN was alluded to in this consultation document in terms of a strategy, since I'm not aware of any formal consultation with AFN or their involvement in developing this strategy.

With that, I'd like to thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to our third presenter, the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador.

Sir, go ahead.

[Lloyd Phillips, Public Security Adviser, Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador]

Good afternoon. My name is Lloyd Phillips. I am the public security advisor for the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to present this brief statement before the committee.

The AFNQL is a regional political organization that acts as a secretariat for the chiefs. We receive our direction and develop our political positions exclusively from the direction of the chiefs of Quebec and Labrador. As such, we do not have any authority over communities. Rather, various files have been established by resolution and have been identified as global issues, and work is done for the collective.

The AFNQL is here today in a supportive role to the communities that are involved in the tobacco trade. We also have concerns over the potential negative impact of the criminalization of first nations. Most first nations citizens are law-abiding, have no involvement in the tobacco trade, and certainly have no connection to drug trafficking or other crimes.

In a discussion of the first nations tobacco industry, it must be realized that there are vast differences of opinion. It is apparent by actions, both historical and recent, by the federal and provincial authorities that they currently view this industry as illegal. First nations will strongly disagree. There are historical and jurisdictional as well as aboriginal and treaty rights involved.

The word “contraband” is a blanket word referring to products that do not conform to federal or provincial laws and regulations. Therefore, it creates a principled disagreement from the start. It clearly ignores any first nations jurisdictional positions or aboriginal or treaty rights. This mindset of the federal authorities could be applied to any product manufactured on first nations territories. However ridiculous it may sound, we could be here discussing contraband moccasins or contraband jewellery. We are not so naive as to think it is this simple. However, the principle remains valid.

At a recent press conference, the Minister of Public Safety and the RCMP, through the release of the RCMP strategy on contraband tobacco, stated that organized crime groups have affiliated themselves within the tobacco industry and are using money raised to fund drug trafficking and other criminal activities. They further stated that more than 100 organized crime groups are active in the tobacco industry, not all within first nations and not all linked to drugs or other criminal activities. This concludes that any group of individuals who are working in the tobacco or cigarette industry are being viewed as “organized crime”.

This is a dangerous precedent. Including cigarettes and tobacco, which is primarily a taxation issue and highly political, in the same category as drug traffickers and other crimes is not only wrong, but it sets the stage for conflict. Removing the politics associated with the tobacco trade and treating it strictly as a public safety and national security issue sets the stage for disaster.

Throughout recent Canadian history, it has been proven that treating a political problem with law enforcement simply doesn't work. As previously mentioned, the RCMP has released a strategy to combat tobacco. It states that crimes such as drug trafficking, illegal firearms, human smuggling, and even links to terrorist groups are involved in the tobacco industry. It must be stated that first nations community members do not want criminal activity in their communities. They do not condone in any way this type of activity. Most people in the industry are strictly involved in tobacco and are simply trying to earn a living.

Most first nations police forces are active in eliminating this type of activity. First nations police forces and governments are in the best position to identify the scope and strategy to deal with these types of criminal activities on their territories. Proper capacity for first nations police is essential to carry this out. Proper protocols with the RCMP and other law enforcement agencies are also essential.

The RCMP has committed itself to working with first nations. However, the scope of any discussions will be limited to the mandate of the RCMP. The federal government must also commit itself to meaningful discussions on long-term and lasting solutions. Long-term and lasting solutions will only occur if there is a recognition of first nations jurisdictions and first nations legislation that will legitimize the industry with proper regulations on all aspects. Through the support and cooperation of the federal government, proper capacity could be developed that could enable such development. The onus will be on the federal government.

The determination of the exact priority issues will be done by communities; however, it is recommended to include solidifying first nations policing agreements, ensuring that proper capacity is established, and ensuring that proper protocols among law enforcement agencies are established and respected. A process of distinguishing between political issues and those of a criminal nature needs to be put in place immediately, as well as to determine if there are any short-term or interim arrangements that could facilitate longer-term goals.

Through a combined effort of meaningful political discussions and respectful law enforcement, a strategy that ensures the long-term viability of the industry and a plan to deal with public safety concerns could be developed.

All first nations strive for greater control over a community's affairs and greater control over their destiny. This can only be done through meaningful dialogue, resulting in recognition of first nations jurisdictions and a plan to ensure quality capacity is built.

Today we are here discussing tobacco, but it could easily be an issue on logging, mining, or a fishing dispute. Jurisdictional and rights-based issues will not go away. We should not wait until it becomes a crisis before dialogue starts.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to our fourth witness, the Centre for Nation Building.

Please go ahead, sir.

[Michael Mitchell, Executive Director, Center for Nation Building]

[Witness speaks in Mohawk]

My name is Michael Kanentakeron Mitchell. I come from Akwesasne. From 1982 to 2006, for the majority of those years, I served as grand chief and district chief for the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne. So I have a little bit of experience with those borders and the problems for Canada, the United States, and the Mohawk Nation.

I will try to give you a better understanding of Akwesasne and its geographic location. You have Cornwall Island, Barnhart Island, St. Regis Island in the St. Lawrence River. Barnhart Island is in New York State. Cornwall Island is in Ontario. St. Regis Island is in Quebec. The international boundary line zigzags around islands in the St. Lawrence River. You have state and provincial boundaries running all through our territory.

Today, the law enforcement officials refer to the St. Lawrence River as a “no-go zone”. One minute you're in Canada and the next minute, when you're floating on the river, you're back in Canada, or New York State, or Quebec, or Ontario. They say if there's anything that has to do with law, they'll wait on the mainland. This is an area we ourselves have to live with, every day crossing a border back and forth.

Sometime after the Royal Proclamation of 1763, which guaranteed to us protection of our lands, a border was run through to separate the colony of New York and the colony of Vermont from the province of Canada. The line ran on a 45-degree north latitude, half the distance between the north pole and the equator. It ran west along the line until it hit the St. Lawrence River. That point is precisely at the St. Regis village. In 1780, George Barnhart, a German settler, moved up from the Mohawk Valley to Cornwall, Ontario. In 1795 he leased Barnhart Island from us. The lease was for $30 a year. In 1805, we insisted upon a larger rental and $60 a year was agreed to.

Subject to our title, Britain had sovereignty there. Its white inhabitants were treated as British subjects. In the Treaty of Ghent, in 1814, which settled the War of 1812, the British traded off Barnhart Island to the Americans for half of Grand Island, at the outlet of Lake Ontario. The Barnharts received $6,597 in awards, over a hundred times the amount of annual rental we were receiving, and later received still a bigger award. The Barnharts remained on the island. The Mohawks received nothing.

Then, in 1842, this border was confirmed by the Webster-Ashburton Treaty, which was entered into between the United States and Great Britain.

So you are left with all the jurisdictional confusion at a place we call Akwesasne. The big gap is in law enforcement. The gap can be filled just one way, by recognizing and respecting the inherent jurisdiction of the Mohawk Nation. Our jurisdiction covers New York, Ontario, and Quebec.

I became grand chief in 1984. Between 1984 and 1986, we submitted 22 bylaws to the Department of Indian Affairs from council that were requested and needed by the community. They covered water safety, boat safety, taking care of the river, the animals in the river, the animals on the mainland, dog catching--22 bylaws that were rejected by the Department of Indian Affairs. Of course, it got advice from the Department of Justice.

We live on the St. Lawrence river, and our people pushed us to say we need something to take care of the water and the people--boat safety--so we created the conservation environmental law. Of course, it was rejected by Canada. Then we wanted a program. We started our justice program. They said, “No, you can't have that either”. We asked for a conservation program. Ottawa said no, Quebec said no, and Ontario said no--no place to train them.

Now, if you're a leader and your people need something, you figure you have to do something, so we sent them to New York State, Albany, and had them trained over there. They came back six months later, finished at the top of their class, fully certified, so we enacted the Akwesasne conservation environmental law. We registered that law with the Mohawk Nation hereditary chiefs, and on our inherent right we put it to work. We fought with the federal and provincial governments. Ten years later, our conservation officers were patrolling with officers from Quebec, with officers from Ontario, with officers from New York State. We were doing joint projects.

What I'm trying to illustrate to you is that we had to fight every inch of the way to establish a law for law and order in Akwesasne. It's a jurisdictional nightmare. You can easily be frustrated when governments tell you, “No, you can't do that”. We've made a lot of progress.

Today, the population of Akwesasne overall is about 18,000, of which over 10,000 are other members of the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne that we're responsible for. We did build up our institutions. We do have a justice department, we do have a Mohawk court, we have law-making ability. The instruments are all there, with strong support from the community. And with that law-making ability, we started providing security for the community.

We do have a tobacco law in Akwesasne for the cigarettes that come from Ontario, and we make sure they go into and are regulated through the stores that exist--the legitimate stores. So everybody gets a quota. But we also understand, because we're in a jurisdictional situation, that the other half of Akwesasne is where the manufacturing plants are located. We have no quarrel with what they're doing.

I want to sit here and tell you that when you talk about smuggling in Akwesasne to our community residents, they'll say, “guns, drugs, aliens, terrorism”. They understand what smuggling is about. And the leaders and the police get help from the community citizens when they see something strange coming down the road or across the river. You say “cigarettes” and they'll give you a look that says, “Well, it's helping the economy”. It needs to be regulated, but it provides employment. Regardless of how you try to sell it, the people are going to look at that and say, “We have to try to find a solution, because it does have an effect, an impact, on us in a positive way, as economic development”.

My desire to be here is to relate to you my experiences. There is a way forward for Canada and the Mohawk Nation to agree to a process in which the tobacco trade can be regulated, can be held accountable.

You need to trust the Mohawk governments that exist in our Iroquois communities. You need to establish a partnership with them so that something is going to be enacted that will, in a safe way, guarantee the safety of your people and ours.

When you live in a jurisdictional situation as we do, you need the support and backing of the United States and Canada, the support of Quebec and Ontario. I can tell you, as part of our geographic situation, we've been good neighbours, and I've already told you hundreds of times over that the majority--98% of the population--is law-abiding. Kids are going to school. People want to work.

We didn't put that border there.

The last thing I want to say is that the ideal solution for Canada and the United States is to move that border. Move the international border one way or the other, or move it aside, and create that Mohawk territory. We're capable of providing for justice, for law and order that would be acceptable to the United States and Canada. It sure would relieve the pressure for us in having to look at each other and ask, “Are you a Quebecker? Are you in Ontario? Are you in New York state? What exactly are you today?”

If somebody moves, or if our children get married to somebody from the other side of the river...one day you're a Canadian, the next day you're an American. The idea that is embedded in all of us is that we are citizens of the Mohawk Nation, and neither Canada nor the United States can ever change that. But we can build on it.

For this issue related to your hearing on cigarette smuggling, there is a peaceful solution. I retired in 2006, and there are a lot of things, as I look back, that have been accomplished by the Mohawks of all the communities, who are now meeting and looking for these solutions. I would urge you to think about those things and find a peaceful way with us to go forward.

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, I did submit a written report to you. I would like to request that it be added, above and beyond the statements I have made.

Niawen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. It will be.

Finally, from the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne, Chief Jacobs. Go ahead, please.

[Chief Cheryl Jacobs, District Chief, Mohawk Council of Akwesasne]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to thank the standing committee. My name is Cheryl Jacobs. I'm a district chief representing Kawehnoke, the island that is situated in Ontario, which he pointed out on the map.

I'd like to acknowledge that our grand chief of the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne is also here. You can see he has a bandage. He's a little incapacitated back there right now.

I sat here on May 5 when it was cancelled at 3:25. I was here on the 7th, the 12th, and the 14th, and I cannot help but say that I found a lot of coincidences and irony in the comments that were made by presenters who were here. I was very frustrated when I wrote this six-page document, which I submitted about a week and a half to two weeks ago. You all have a copy of it because it was translated into French.

When I did this submission, I went back and I did a lot of research, attempting to identify solutions. I hope you've had the opportunity to read my document that was submitted. My submission was made with some frustration and anger attached and, lastly, with the realization of how government entities can distort the truth without adequate and sufficient consultation--you've heard that word over and over by my colleagues here--with our communities, especially when we are being directly impacted by an issue.

I'd like to draw your attention to the RCMP document. Again, ironically, it was dropped on your laps on that Wednesday when the minister made his announcement. I actually felt for a moment how you may have felt that afternoon right before Mike Cabana spoke to his report. We are working on internal strategies. Keep in mind, this is the RCMP strategy. The comments that were made were very offensive towards our communities. We are working on our strategies.

For one moment I'd like to think about the statement that was made on May 29 inside Parliament, in the debates of the Senate. The Kelowna Accord was mentioned by the Hon. Robert W. Peterson. He stated:

Will the government continue to listen to First Nations people and ensure other important issues such as health, education, housing and economic development are addressed through the reintroduction of the Kelowna Accord?

The Hon. Marjory LeBreton, leader of the government, basically in her statement says something to the effect that peaceful demonstrations are going on with the National Day of Action. They believe in economic development--it's critically important--and the Conservative government has made real progress and the government has focused on practical, measurable, and tangible action in working with aboriginal people. She said the government and the ministers are working hard on resolving a lot of these longstanding issues.

Why does the government have to turn our issues into longstanding ones? This has been a longstanding issue, this contraband tobacco. This is why frustrations and angers build. So instead of contributing to the problem, work with us on speedy solutions, because we can come to you with practical, measurable, and tangible actions needed to solve the problems.

I have come to you today. I will not provide the documents, but I just want to point out that Mike mentioned earlier that there is a law right now that deals with the provincial quota system. We have a draft Akwesasne tobacco products law that would govern the manufacturing, distribution, and sale of tobacco products on the territory of Akwesasne. It has been dated December 2006, so we are working on the regulatory components of this issue.

We have a draft marine funding proposal on behalf of our Mohawk Police Service. If you remember, the shiprider program was mentioned. I'd like to point out several of my documents, but I'd need probably 100 minutes to discuss in-depth what the little tabs are all about. The shiprider program was dumped in our laps, the Akwesasne community's lap, two weeks prior to its implementation on the waters.

The RCMP document--the other one I got that day--is all tabbed out too, because it highlights areas that we need to sit down and have further discussions on. The RCMP document, I was told, would be completed, the final evaluation, on May 30--“We'll get you a copy”. I've sent e-mails. We don't have the final report yet. This has a direct impact on our community. There are plans being made that directly impact our community about contraband tobacco.

They're not consulting with us to prove and show to you that we can be part of the solution. The problem has been identified. It's been clearly identified. Again, we are part of the solution. Along with everybody sitting here at this table, we are part of that solution.

From reading half of these documents, I believe you give credit where credit is deserved and due. Three-quarters of the RCMP documents don't give credit back to our police department. Our police are stuck between a rock and hard place in having to enforce your laws and having to live in that community every day.

Concerning a solution, the number one answer from our perspective is to have the federal government listen to our solutions. We request that the federal government give us financial resources to address this issue internally and also help us by ensuring we have the financial resources to finish producing our laws. Our police can't do this alone, and the solution is both an enforcement and a political one.

Look at the bigger picture. You have to recognize our ability to create our own laws and allow us to apply them. Regulate—I keep mentioning that word. You have heard from other speakers about regulating.

I want to make something clear. I was offended when Mike Cabana made a statement about the illegal manufacturing in Akwesasne. And I contacted the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe to ensure these facts were correct. So for the record, I'm going to produce factual information for you versus what's sitting in this report about Akwesasne.

There are currently six tribally licensed manufacturers on the U.S. portion of our territory and three unlicensed ones who are not operating as of today. Five of the six tribally licensed manufacturers have applied for federal ATF licences. One currently is operating with a federal ATF licence. Again, there is lack of consultation. You're going to hear that from now until we come up with a solution. You have to consult with us.

The Canada Border Services Agency, another law enforcement entity, is mentioned numerous times. They spoke. Again, I hope you've read my document where I state the mandate of the standing committee, where, again, you have the power under Standing Order 108(1), which goes into.... And I listed only the RCMP and CBSA, because what is happening right now with the CBSA is that our people are continuously, day in and day out, filing grievances and complaints against the treatment we are receiving from CBSA officials, from front-line workers right up to upper management.

We have our complaints filed with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. Now, if we were able to sit down and work together, we wouldn't have to go to this degree of filing with the Canadian Human Rights Commission as a result of the improper treatment of our people.

Lastly, I would like to state what we have to do in our community to educate the external communities to prove the positive things that exist in our community. We educate by producing documents like this. We are a special people in a special place, in a unique place.

I will leave these in the back of the room for anybody here who wishes to learn positive things about Akwesasne. I was told about the Official Languages Act; that's why I'm stating that I'll leave them in the back of the room, because it is in English and some Mohawk.

In closing, I have to agree with a lot of the comments that were made here from our other communities, and the majority of the information you were given was 95% of exactly what I was going to say. Ten minutes is not enough time to go into every component of what is highlighted in our concerns about this document. But I did come today to at least let you know we are working on solutions, and we've got to sit down together and do it. It shouldn't take five or six years for us to come up with a solution to this, because the problems have existed for fifteen years right now.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

The normal practice at this committee is to allow people to make comments and questions and then you can elaborate on any of the things that are raised.

The first person on my list is Mr. Cullen. Go ahead, please.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I will speak for myself. I have no difficulty at all making sure that first nations people, aboriginal people, have good economic opportunities. I recognize there are challenges in that regard.

Also, on consultation, if there was limited or no consultation by the RCMP for that report, I think that was wrong-footed. Moving forward, if there are opportunities to consult, I think that would be a good idea for the government. But I think one needs to start with some principles that one could agree to perhaps.

One of the things we heard from some of the previous witnesses was that contraband tobacco is destabilizing for the community. But I did not hear any of that today. I wonder if you could comment on that. Do you see it as a problem?

Second, I know you talked about drugs and people and guns and all that. Those are problems as well. No one would deny that. We've had evidence to suggest that there are about nine laws of this country of Canada that have been broken, such as various taxes and various markings that are supposed to be on various cigarettes. Are you saying you don't need to comply with those laws? If I were involved in a consultation, that's where I would like to start.

Third, even if one agreed, which I don't, that on these first nations properties you have the right to violate these laws of Canada by selling these cigarettes and tobacco products in these shacks to non-reserve people, people who are not first nations people, do you feel any sense of responsibility for trying to inhibit that?

Finally, on the smuggled products--I am calling them smuggled products, because I think that's what they are. You might debate it, but there are a lot of these contraband products coming from the United States. Do you feel no sense of responsibility to try to impede that, to stop it?

Maybe we'll start there. I don't know who wants to have a go at that. Do you, Mr. Delisle?

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

I'll take one portion of it, and anyone else who wants to can come in afterwards.

You talk about Canadian laws. I think that statement is an example of the fundamental misconception about who we are. We'll never be Canadian citizens, regardless of what documents we carry, what we signed, and how the Canadian government or the provincial government, for that matter, describes us. As one of my cohorts today said, under Mohawk authority, as a citizen of the Mohawk Nation, there are fundamental misconceptions about how we're supposed to discuss issues of this relevance, this nature, and this importance with each other.

The consultations, I think, that we're talking about today are not with an enforcement agency; they're directly with the government officials of Canada, because the properties we occupy, as you say, and the territories that I guess we are considered to occupy at this point are traditional territories. There are fundamental principles that have to go into the relationship-building that has not been happening for 200 years.

So instead of talking about destabilization, you have to take a step back, as the Canadian government, to understand where we're coming from. Responsibility, I can accept. There are some issues that we need to address and are continuing to address within our communities. But the Canadian law aspect is something that really--I'll be polite today--is upsetting for us to hear, from my perspective anyway.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Would anyone else like to comment, particularly on the sale of these tobacco products in these shacks to people who are not first nations people and on the contraband tobacco coming in from the United States? Do you have no concern about that or a feeling that you should be trying to stop that?

[Chief Cheryl Jacobs]

As the map pointed out, on the Canadian portion we don't have illegal shacks in our community. Our cigarette sellers are regulated through the quota system.

As far as responsibility, three-quarters of the time our police are not given recognition for the work they do as partners with the RCMP and the other 10 law enforcement agencies—however many there are, they are numerous—that surround our community. They work hand in hand. I have statistics from our police department on some of their investigative involvement from April 2005 to April 2007 pertaining to cigarette seizures.

I was not sure when I was speaking whether I'd be able to get in this information in 10 minutes. But it's important to note that we take this responsibility seriously. Keep in mind that it is regulated on the U.S. portion. So we have internal mechanisms that we recognize. On the U.S. portion, the cigarettes are being regulated and the stamps are put on them. Where they go after they leave the American portion--they were legal.

When they come back across the border into Canada, it puts our police who live in our community between a rock and a hard place, forced to enforce Canada's laws against our own people. They are involved in the apprehension and seizure of contraband tobacco. It's frustrating, because we don't have the resources to help even further with the external police agencies.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. St. Amand would like to ask a question.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Thanks for coming today and for your very powerful presentations--particularly your comment about how regrettable it is that members of your communities are branded as criminals, or that there's a disproportionately high number of criminals in your midst. That's offensive and absolutely wrong. I accept that.

Ms. Jacobs, taking a cue from what you've mentioned about consultation--and you're absolutely right--do we all accept that smoking is harmful to your health? Everybody surely accepts that.

[Chief Cheryl Jacobs]

Yes.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Is it acceptable that the rate of smokers among aboriginals is three times higher than in the non-native population? That is unacceptably high, clearly. Nobody disagrees with that.

[Chief Cheryl Jacobs]

Nobody disagrees.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Do you agree then--and I presume you do--that we have a collective responsibility to eradicate smoking, particularly among children of your communities and the communities of Canada?

[Richard Jock]

Part of what the Assembly of First Nations is trying to say about this is that simply focusing on the enforcement element itself is misguided. There needs to be consideration of economic development and economic replacement strategies, and investment in reduction strategies and programming to reduce smoking. Those are also important, and they have been either cut or diminished. We're saying there should be a wide continuum of efforts if you really expect to be successful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead, sir.

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

I don't disagree with any of the comments you made, and I thank you for acknowledging some of the problems that have been identified by Chief Jacobs, as well as others here today, on lack of consultation and so on.

Again, because we're talking tax, and that is the issue.... Health, yes. Now they've targeted organized crime and criminalization and so on as another aspect of that. It may sound like I'm trying to be comical here, but I'm not actually.

There is also a high incidence of lack of clean drinking water. There is a high rate of diabetes within our communities as well. I don't see a higher tax being put on the Big Mac; I don't see us being attacked for overeating or those types of things. If we're going to get down to the basics of what this is about, it's jurisdictional and it's about taxation. It's about the moneys that are not going into the external coffers. And there's a role to play for first nations communities because it has been identified, and we've said it here today, that we are the focus of the problem, at least our four communities, within this report.

The obligation of the Canadian government is to sit down with us in order to describe fully what it anticipates us doing, instead of ramming something through again and turning it into an enforcement issue, which we are very concerned about in our communities. My community as well--I won't speak on anybody else's behalf--is very concerned about some of the elements that have infiltrated it. But again, I say with all due respect, I think it's being clouded by other issues. We do have serious health concerns, whether it's smoking, whether it's diabetes, or others. To attack it this way I think is wrong. The Canadian government needs to come forward and say to us directly and sit down with us directly--and it will happen in the near future, I can guarantee it--on what the issues actually are.

It has been tried in the past through taxation, lifting it, dropping it, and so on, which has helped create some of the problems. We've identified some of the issues in the past, with conglomerates being involved. I think to attack it in this way is really to cloud the issue, with all due respect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We're about out of time. If you have a brief comment, go ahead.