Public Safety Committee on June 4th, 2008

[Michael Mitchell]

Very brief. In the 1970s, fuel was low in the United States, so fuel was going the other way through our territory, into the United States--truckloads. In the 1980s, it was alcohol. It's the commodity of the day. That fuel didn't stop until the Mohawks came forward and met with Canada and worked out a formula where we wouldn't have that rash of...it was almost like a wagon train going across. It took some time, about six years, but it did provide a remedy for us. In 1980, it was the same thing.

Working in partnerships, trying to find and agree on a common solution is the answer. So my question is, what's it going to be in 10 years' time? It's going to be another commodity. Are you going to ask us the same questions then?

Cigarettes are a health issue. Right now, it's an economic issue for Canada, lost revenue. But it's also a health issue. Nobody will deny that we should sit down and discuss those two varied principles and come to an agreement; something has to be done. But five or ten years later, because we're a border community, because we're first nations, something else will come up.

So overall, put more attention and support toward justice, toward law and order and policing, and education. It will serve all of us a lot better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Monsieur Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We really have very little time to discuss this problem. I do not know whether you recognize me, Mr. Delisle.

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

Yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you. I was the Quebec Minister of Public Security at various times and I believe I had a very productive, even pleasant, relationship with the authorities of Kanesatake and Kahnawake—but not with those of Akwesasne—because I respected them and they respected me.

I also understood the Mohawks' land claims that are not yet settled. I know that the lands that were given to the Jesuits for the settlement of your ancestors who were fleeing from the tribal wars in the United States have been sold. They were used to build the seaway, Mercier Bridge, a rail line and the whole city of Brossard.

People said to me that they were not crazy, that they were not asking that the city of Brossard be destroyed so that the land could be given back to the first nations peoples in question. They did say, however, that they were entitled to compensation.

I think you are entitled to compensation as well.

I think that together we managed to resolve the problem of the local police to the satisfaction of the parties. I think I did quite a good job in getting the people of Quebec to accept the agreement as well. We conducted a survey in which we asked people if they would agree to having the aboriginal police officers stop people every morning or every evening when they used roads that went through your reserves, if you were to comply with certain conditions. Surprisingly, 86% of people agreed to do this. So the mayors said nothing, and we were able to work together.

Would it be correct to say that this police arrangement is still working quite well, Mr. Delisle? Perhaps we can work from there to see whether we might find some other arrangements.

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

Thank you for your kind words, Monsieur Ménard. I remember meeting you several times before, with former Grand Chief Joe Norton.

To answer your question, I believe the relationships that have been built and the agreements that have been signed trilaterally between us—as Quebec and through Canada—have worked well for the benefit of everyone involved. There have been recent events that show this. There is cooperation. We are law-abiding citizens, depending on what we consider and what you consider that term to mean.

The developments in recent years have been good for both nations in Quebec, and we're still willing to contribute and provide assistance when necessary. We'd like it to be built on and established even further. Because the report is federal at this time, maybe further cooperation among us would help alleviate some of those external concerns from the RCMP.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Is it correct that one of the main criticisms about the policy being put forward by the federal government at the moment has to do first and foremost with the fact that you were not consulted, or if you were consulted, that you were consulted after the fact, rather than before?

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

You are correct, that is part of the issue. But the consultation doesn't necessarily need to come from the enforcement agencies or the enforcement people within the governments. It needs to come from the government itself. It needs true political will from the leadership, regardless of who's in power on behalf of the crown of Canada, as it's called.

Those relationships need to be based on mutual respect, and then we can start talking about some of the enforcement aspects that need to be developed internally through Mohawk first nations communities.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I see that our time is really short. You all said yes to the very relevant questions asked by my colleague Mr. St. Amand. You acknowledged that smoking causes serious diseases among your people and among our people. If there is more disease among your people, the reason is generally because the people smoke more because the cigarettes are cheaper. We could start from the premise that there is a health problem that we all acknowledge, but that we should start over, set aside politics—we can see whether there are some viable initiatives to be considered—and work together on the health problem that affects all us. We can also work together on the problem of enforcing the law and the trade in these goods.

[Christine Zachary-Deom, Legal Counsel, Mohawk Council of Kahnawake]

Mr. Ménard, if I can just make a few comments, first of all, I want to thank you for stating that through consultation you had a very good result at Kahnawake, and I can say that with regard to policing, things are improving constantly there. So you understand I think more than many people what talking with the Mohawks of Kahnawake can achieve.

Certainly in our presentation before this committee we wanted to ensure that people understood that we are a people who have been here for a long time, with a tremendous history. We don't have natural resources like many of the first nations throughout this country. Our resources have gone, and they have made the wealth of this country.

Now it's a matter of recognizing our major principle, and that is that we speak and are able to make a treaty with you as we have in the past, and that's something that can't be forgotten. Thank you.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would like to talk to you now about a solution that has been tried. I confess that I do not remember whether it was implemented or not, but I do remember that it was discussed at one point.

The idea would be to have the duty on cigarettes collected once they are manufactured. As a result, the price of cigarettes would be the same on our common lands, so as to discourage people from buying cigarettes at lower prices on one part of our common lands. However, all the duties collected on cigarettes purchased by aboriginals would be given to the community. I believe Mr. Chevrette, the former Minister of Aboriginal Affairs in the Quebec government, wanted to suggest this solution. I do not know whether such a plan ever worked.

Can you tell me that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Does anyone want to give a brief response?

Go ahead.

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

Thank you again, Mr. Ménard.

I just have a comment on your first statement. I couldn't agree with you more on putting policy aside and starting over, in your own words, to where we need to a conclusion on this. We do take it very seriously, and, again, we acknowledge your words.

You are correct in stating that back through the late nineties and into early 2000, and in regard to Mr. Chevrette, there was at least some form of discussion as to where it would go. Again, I think that may be part of the solution, such that the duties, taxes, tariffs, and everything else that are to be paid, or the industry would be mandated to pay, should go back to the first nation community. As I said earlier, and Cheryl reiterated, we are part of the problem, and thus we need to be part of the solution.

That is only part of it, though, because we do realize that there are health factors here. To move forward as well, I think Canada should make a further commitment to give back more to the health ministries in terms of where some of those dollars need to go, because the taxes are so high—and maybe not only on tobacco, but on other products as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Does anybody else have a comment before I go to Ms. Priddy?

[Chief Cheryl Jacobs]

My only comment on Mr. Ménard's remarks is that he mentioned that we had talked about it at one point. Listen to these things that are being said: it was talked about a long time ago, and we're not sure if it was implemented. So solutions have been discussed.

Do the solutions fall on deaf ears? That's my question back to you.

We are coming to you. I came here, and I'm showing you documents. We are working hard to try to address these things by coming forward with documents.

Was it implemented? He doesn't know. Do we know if it was implemented? It almost seems like it probably wasn't. We wouldn't be in this situation if something had been implemented a long time ago.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Priddy.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, and my thanks to our guests for being here. My apologies for being delayed. I sent notice to the chair that I would be late, and I apologize for that.

My first question is to Chief Jacobs. Grand Chief Thompson was quoted in the paper as saying that one of the potential solutions was being allowed to keep the proceeds of crime money. I wondered if you could expand on this a bit, so I could understand better how it would work.

Second, in my home province, there has been collective work done between first nations people and the federal government. Treaties have been developed where tobacco was taxed, but the tax stayed in the first nations community. It goes back to being used for whatever development the community needs. I wonder if you see this as something that would work in other places.

When I sat on the health committee, and the funding was frozen for tobacco reduction strategies in the aboriginal community, I can remember asking the health minister whether that money would be removed. He said that it would not be, that it would be held for other proposals to be submitted. I'm not on the health committee, I don't know where that's gone, but I was assured that it would not be removed and that the money would be held. I will take responsibility for following up on this—that's a question I was wondering about.

Finally, you've talked very legitimately about the need to do this together. Independent action doesn't work, and there are lots of examples, not just today but however many hundreds of years back, to show that it doesn't work. If we could all take three steps this week or this month, what do you think they'd be, to start collectively working on this? That's for anybody.

[Chief Cheryl Jacobs]

I'd like to respond to the first question that was directed to me. If I had the time, I probably would have rattled off all this information in front of me. With respect to the proceeds of crime, between April 2005 and August 2006, there was $102,000 in currency seized. In my document, I go back to just how hard it is for us to get our hands on that money. After the adjudication process is completed and it ends up in some bank account up here in Ottawa, it's hard to get even a small pot of money out of it. It costs us more to get the auditor to come in to report back to you on how we spent the money. I say it's absolutely ridiculous. No offence, but there are some ridiculous things set up. If we used a common-sense approach to certain things, maybe we would have more resolve. And that was just one statistic.

From August 2006 to December 2006, we see $41,000 in currency. If that money stayed in our community, we could use those dollars in justice, policing, social, youth, and health programs. These dollars would help offset any deficits that we have or what we incur over the year. Even 50% of that, if it was given back, would help us.

That's my response. Thank you.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Could someone answer the other one, about the treaties?

[Grand Chief Michael Delisle]

We are diverse people. We are spread across this country on land that you call Canada, and we are very distinct. With respect to the rules that have been accepted, if not imposed, in modern-day treaties, especially when it comes to taxation, we would not fit the mould. We would be open to discussing, as Monsieur Ménard said, how we could mutually come to a conclusion on what would be acceptable to us. But this whole cookie-cutter approach, this mould of what first nations treaty taxation is, is not acceptable to the Mohawks. I'll speak on behalf of Kahnawake, but I believe this is true across Mohawk territory, and probably even in Haudenosaunee, beyond Mohawk territory.

We would be willing to sit down and talk about a treaty, as you call it. We would like to discuss some type of agreement on how the funds could be shared. I'm not saying you're saying it, but to say from Canada's perspective that it works here doesn't necessarily mean much. It probably means that it will absolutely not work in Mohawk territory.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Phillips.

[Lloyd Phillips]

You asked what three steps we could take. The first thing that needs to happen, as step number one, is that there be the acknowledgement, first and foremost, that this is a politically charged issue that is highly political, and it's not just a criminal issue. That's the first thing. There has to be that acknowledgement.

Secondly, there has to be the commitment made by the government to sit down for discussions with the first nations who are affected to work out various agreements. That commitment can't just be lip service, as they say. It has to be a real commitment. It's not going to be an easy process, but it's something from which we're looking for results, and results will come.

The third one, I would say, would be that the first nations police forces have to be supported, even more than they are currently being supported, to properly and adequately deal with any of the public safety concerns that are out there. If they are properly resourced and supported, that would eliminate a lot of the concerns as far as public safety is concerned.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Is there anybody else?

Yes, go ahead.

[Michael Mitchell]

Three steps?

In the Iroquois Nation that we belong to, there is a law called the great law of peace, and that law of peace is thousands of years old for us. It established us, the five and then six nations, to have some kind of unified governance. It means as much to us now, today, as it did then: law and order, justice.

But under the Indian Act, I learned one word in my first six months in office as grand chief, and that was “ultra vires”--you can't do this, you can't do that, you don't have the authority, the law already exists. In the meantime, the community is asking for something to protect them. So let's walk a few steps and learn what our ancient laws meant to provide for peace and stability, and what your law has meant, so that we can agree to take a few steps towards that concept.

Good relations are another thing. Do away with pointing fingers at Akwesasne and Kahnawake and the other communities, saying they're a haven for criminality. You know it's not true. People do use us, but we need to stand together and say that people are using our community, and that's only a handful. Let's talk about the large majority and what their aspirations are.

If we both speak out for the same principle, going in the same direction, we can wipe that situation out and promote good relations, educating not only the Mohawks but Canadians about that concept.

Those are the three steps, for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll move over to the government side now.

Mr. MacKenzie, please.