Public Safety Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Excuse me, Mr. Cullen. I haven't heard anyone say that she was a person of interest. The reason I interrupt is because, as you know, those terms can be used differently. I did hear Assistant Commissioner Souccar say that she was known.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm sure she was. I'm concerned about the documents. I know that these particular documents were departmental documents. And there's a review going on in the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

My concern is that, first of all, if this particular set of documents was left there for four to five weeks, I don't know, and I don't know who knows, what other sets of documents may have been left at Madame Couillard's apartment. Hopefully the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade report will comment on that.

I know these documents are secret. They were prepared in advance of a NATO meeting. My concern is that anything in there could have put in jeopardy the safety of our troops or NATO troops in Afghanistan.

I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but we've just had a major break-in at a prison in Kandahar. It's that sort of thing. You're probably not at liberty to comment on that, because the information is secret. But I would expect that within the PCO there's a lot of information floating around right now probing into what actually was in the documents.

Let me ask a more specific question. If you can comment on what was in those documents, I'd appreciate it. You may not be able to do that. Have our NATO partners been informed of this security breach and potentially other security breaches? What has their reaction been? Are you aware of those facts?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

You're quite right, Mr. Cullen. Obviously any inappropriate handling of secret documents is of concern. Indeed, the minister in this case took responsibility and resigned.

But there were several steps taken afterwards. There is a review ongoing, which includes an injury assessment. There was a quick assessment made initially. There were the briefing books, and they are fairly thick. So the review is to do a thorough assessment.

NATO was informed. There was not anything that either I or Foreign Affairs saw, in a quick review of them, of the nature you are talking about. That said, they were secret documents, and they were clearly inappropriately handled.

NATO was informed. There was also a check to see if there was any information that had been provided by our allies in confidence. Again, the preliminary review, which stands to be confirmed in the full review being conducted now, showed that, no, there was not. So the only one informed was NATO.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

I don't know what the timeframe is for the DFAIT review, when we might see those results, the kind of timelines the Privy Council would be looking at to come to grips with some of these facts, and whether they will reveal that sort of information. I hope they do or that they will at least touch on those factors.

I'd like to come back to the role of the PCO--

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Would you like me to answer?

My expectation is that the review will be completed by the end of July. We obviously are concerned about finishing the review of everything involved with this, and that's the expectation. It will be by the end of July.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'd like to turn now, quickly, to the role of PCO versus the PMO. You talked about the update of Mr. Bernier's background check.

By the way, I find it somewhat ironic that in the conflict of interest guidelines, through the Ethics Commissioner, an officer of Parliament, I have to go through this rigmarole all the time with my wife's assets and what have you. When I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, they tried to have my wife set up a blind trust. They couldn't require it. In other words, in terms of spouses, there seems to be a different set of guidelines. Nonetheless--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you have a brief question?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I have a quick question.

In terms of the role of the PCO versus the PMO, you got the briefing by the RCMP in April 2008. The RCMP basically said, “Not a problem.” But within the PCO, and even in the newspaper reports and what have you, or within the PMO, someone somewhere must have said, “There's something we need to be careful about.”

Would it be possible that someone in the Prime Minister's Office, for example, said, “Well, we see this, but we don't think it's a problem, because these are private matters”? Or would you take it upon yourself, Ms. Bloodworth, to flag it, notwithstanding the positive report you had on Mr. Bernier, and talk to the PMO people and say, “I know we have a clean report, but I've been reading the stuff in the newspaper. Is everything copacetic?”

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, do you have a brief response?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Well, I'm obviously not speaking for PMO. Look, I've tried very carefully to stay with the actual facts. We had the clearance and we go by background checks; we go by information we get by the agencies qualified to do so. That's not any different with this government from what it was with the government you were a part of, or any government prior to that. That's what we rely on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Bloodworth.

It is ironic that you said you just want to deal with the facts. I get the feeling that other people want to deal with supposition on what people might or might not have known.

In response to this whole area, you've made it very clear what the role of PCO is, where the information comes from. Somehow my friends seem to have the idea that if you saw a picture of somebody you should recognize them as either being okay or not okay. I don't think that's the role PCO is in. If I'm wrong on that, please tell me, but it seems to me that all of my friends opposite seem to know an individual I didn't know, and I don't think my colleagues on this side knew. I have this difficulty in that if they knew they didn't tell anybody. But that's not the role of PCO, as you've explained it to us here today.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I'm not sure whether that's actually a question. I've tried to explain what we do with regard to background checks. PCO does provide advice on a whole range of things. I have not talked about any of those things today. I don't mean to suggest that what we do with regard to background checks is the only thing PCO does.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think in regard to this issue we're talking about one particular cabinet minister and his association with one particular person. My colleagues have indicated that everybody knew that person and have made certain assumptions about whether or not red flags should go up. I saw perhaps pictures similar to what you did and others did, and to what my colleagues on this side did. We didn't know the individual. I don't know why they would assume you should know the individual, or that the PMO should know the individual, or that anyone else should, and they should have done something about it. It seems that if they knew, they should have brought that issue forward and certainly didn't.

From your evidence to Mr. Norlock, I think you were not informed by them, if in fact they knew this person and were concerned about security. If that is in fact the case, I don't know why we keep sitting here and trying to beat you over the head, and the RCMP and everyone else, about something that they think they knew but didn't tell anyone. I don't know if you can tell us that there's some magic thing out there that--I think it's a UFO kind of thing--that PCO would then assume that they should be concerned about a security issue about something they don't know.

I'm afraid there's probably not an answer in there, or a question, or whatever, but the whole thing seems to me to be ludicrous. We're looking at some kind of conspiracy theory among the RCMP, PCO, PMO, and the only people who seem to know all the dangers are the members of the opposition. I do respect you here and I don't know how you can answer, but try.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Well, what I've tried to describe is what is done with regard to background checks, which is one input to prime ministers as they decide on cabinet formation. And it is for this government as it was for previous governments. I certainly didn't mean to suggest, when I said the opposition had not written to me or called me, that they were under an obligation to do so. That wasn't the import of my answer. If it was taken that way, that wasn't the way it was meant.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Nor was I trying to suggest that. All I'm saying is that since this has occurred they've certainly been in the press indicating that everybody else should have known. All I'm saying is that they didn't tell anybody. I don't know how you could know these kinds of things and how you could then tell somebody else. It's just a mystery to me how everybody on that side seemed to recognize it and nobody else did.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll go over to Ms. Brown, please.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bloodworth, I identify with you. I too only know what I read in the papers. Perhaps we're both related to that American comic Will Rogers, who used to start every show with that particular line and then pull things out of his pocket about what he had read in the paper.

There will be some things that I think you probably do know that are factual. So I'll go on those questions.

Could you tell me on what day and at what time of that day--whether it was morning, afternoon, or evening--Madame Couillard's lawyer contacted the Government of Canada about the classified documents in her possession? When did that information come to the attention of the government?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I can tell you when it came to my attention. I don't know when it came to Mr. Bernier's attention. That presumably will be looked at in the review. I learned some time mid-afternoon on May 26. You're talking about the documents now?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes. Was that a Sunday or a Monday?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

That was Monday.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Do you know the name of the person who contacted the government on her behalf?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No, I don't. I'm sorry.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Do you know who, from the Government of Canada, communicated with her lawyer on the government's behalf?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No.