Public Safety Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Monsieur Ménard, your time is up, so you'll have to pursue this maybe if you submit an amendment. I'm sorry. You'll have to come back.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

No, it's fine.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I hope the persons who are behind you understand that you agree that we could put it more clearly.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I understand your concern, and if we disagree, this is not the first time.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Nor the last.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

The last questioner in this round is Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I think we've approached some of the very tender subjects, some of the most important parts of the legislation that the anti-terrorism committee looked at, even though they weren't necessarily part of the act, as Mr. Cullen indicated.

I have had some people approach me, average Canadians, who believe that Bill C-3 is being very generous to people who are foreign nationals. They have the right to expect to be treated in accordance with Canadian law, but they also have the right to leave the country if they feel they're ill done by. That's the so-called three-sided jail.

One of the other issues that surrounds us in these times of great need in our country, which we hear both in this place and out in the communities, is the cost of doing business in governance. One of the issues that was brought up, and it's not to demean the process but to actually bring some light to the process to the average person on the street who listens to the esoteric arguments and some of the discussions that go on here, is have we costed it out?

One of the important things that we see in our judicial system is the cost of doing business and the cost of providing legal representation. Have we costed out some of the provisions that are being suggested? In other words, how much more is this going to cost the Canadian taxpayer? I guess what I'm trying to say is that good lawyers don't come cheap.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I guess I would ask, what price liberty, what price freedom? But I do agree that people raise the issue in terms that we also need to be responsible in relation to our tax dollars.

The facility itself, known as the detention facility, which was constructed by the Liberals—at the request, actually, of individuals who were at that time detained in a provincial system, which was not an appropriate place for them to be detained—was $2.3 million, to build a facility of six beds. So there's a cost there.

The average cost of a person in corrections, depending on the facility in Canada, can be as low as $87,500 but as high as over $300,000 per individual. There's a considerable range there, but it averages out at somewhat over $100,000.

That would not be the case for those detained in this particular facility. The costs are higher. You don't have the efficiencies and economies of scale that you would can apply when you have, say, 100 inmates.

The cost of a special advocate won't have to be assumed by the person being detained. Some person might call that a whole lot of expensive, free legal protection, but in Canada we do value those types of protections. So we think in most cases the taxpayers would see that it's money well spent to protect our liberties and at the same time protect citizens.

It's always a balance, it's always a challenge, and the costs will not be insignificant, but we believe the costs are appropriate when we're talking about the maintenance of our Charter of Rights and maintenance of individual freedoms.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are you finished, Mr. Norlock?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, we will suspend for a few minutes.

Just before you leave, however, at the very end of the meeting we have to deal with a budget item for witnesses, and we also have another issue with a couple of witnesses who are not able to come.

Thank you, Mr. Minister; we appreciate your coming here.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you for the good questions and advice from around the table. We'll consider it all. We appreciate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, I'd like to bring this meeting back to order.

We would like to welcome, from the department, from the Canada Border Services, Mr. David Dunbar; from the Department of Justice, Mr. Daniel Therrien; from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Ms. Lynda Clairmont, Ms. Edith Dussault, and Mr. Warren Woods. Welcome to all of you.

Do you have any presentation or opening comments to make?

[A voice]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You will simply be answering questions.

Okay, it's a continuation of the meeting.

We will now move over to the Liberal Party in this round. It is still a five-minute round.

Ms. Barnes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

For general counsel, please, could you just inform us whether or not the special advocates in Great Britain after which this is supposedly modelled have solicitor-client privilege?

[Daniel Therrien, Acting Assistant Deputy Attorney General, Citizenship, Immigration and Public Safety Portfolio, Department of Justice]

They do not. They do not have solicitor-client privilege.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay.

I would like to go on and ask you about the new section--I think it's proposed subsection 82.2(1)—that allows for a warrantless arrest by a peace officer on breach of conditions. Why did you decide to go warrantless?

[Lynda Clairmont, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Right now, those arrests without warrant, if they're violating their conditions of release, are built into the release order. So we were attempting to just formulate that in law.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

So right now anybody on condition has a breach of condition saying it's automatic?

[Lynda Clairmont]

Generally that's how it's dealt with. In their conditions of release, if they breach the terms of their release, then they can be picked up.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay.

I see the minimum standards you have for your special counsel in the legislation, but I know there would be a concern about what resources mean. You're the people who will be designing the regulations. I'm not talking about just desks and offices. I'm talking about real resources of access to proper information and advice by security-cleared people.

What are you thinking of? Can you elaborate? I really didn't get any real information from the minister's answer. He just replied that it was in the regulations. What are you talking about? I know the people who would want to be special advocates and who are needed as special advocates will need to know this, including the other aspect of what I call the compensation. I hope this isn't something we're thinking--at a legal aid rate of return for trying to attract people to do this job for us.

[Lynda Clairmont]

I would ask my colleague from the Department of Justice to deal with that, because they're setting up the program.

Daniel.