Public Safety Committee on April 21st, 2009

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

Yes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

So which of these problems that have been mentioned today were not in the minds of the Conservatives at the time? What's new and what's not new? Essentially, what's come up since that time as opposed to what they just decided not to fix?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

There's nothing new, really.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Is there any link between the DNA database and this registry?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

No.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Do you think there should be some form of link or cooperation? Would that assist with this overall process?

[Supt Leo O'Brien]

That's a difficult one to answer. I think it's one that would need more study. It hasn't been looked at really, so--

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay.

My perspective is the same as that of Mr. McColeman and Mr. Richards, which is that we need something that works, that protects the populace. I'd like to hear from you--and it doesn't have to be today--in terms of any other changes you would like to see. Also, I'd like to hear it from Ms. Lines in terms of any problems with the Ontario system.

It seems clear that the Ontario system is better than the federal system. I don't know that it's perfect, but I'd like to hear how you'd like to see the Ontario system changed--and we're not going to do that here--so that at least we know that if we're attempting to change the federal system we're getting the best overall possible solution. I'm not asking you to say that right now because we have very limited time, but if you wouldn't mind presenting something to us or giving us a document after, I'd appreciate that.

As well, if any of you have provided any written submissions or input to either Mr. Day or Mr. Van Loan at any point in time about any of these problems, I'm asking for the production of those records so this committee can see exactly what was suggested to the Conservative government and what they did or did not do.

[Mary Campbell]

Could I ask for a clarification on your question about a link with the DNA data bank? I'm not entirely sure what kind of link you're thinking about. Some of our offenders, of course, are subject to both a DNA order and a sex offender registration order.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm raising it as an issue for you, as the experts, to think about and comment upon. I do not want it to go unnoticed. Maybe there shouldn't be one, or maybe there should be, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

Once again, my goal is to make this as strong and fair as possible and have it deal both with prevention and with enforcement in terms of solving crimes.

[Mary Campbell]

Thank you.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

The other one that hasn't been touched is whether--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time is up. Can you do this briefly?

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Sure.

When you're doing that, could you also provide us with comments about what we should be doing to protect foreign countries? Right now, I believe, the national system does nothing in terms of what we're supposed to do to protect and advise. You would assume that we would have some form of obligation to protect others as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. I think that was a statement.

Mr. Rathgeber, please.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your appearance here this morning and for your dedication in providing public safety and security.

Ms. Campbell, for clarification, I appreciate that there's no formal link between the sex offender registry and the DNA registry, but I think in a subsequent answer to my friend, Mr. Kania, you indicated that sexual offences are, in fact, also included in the DNA registry. Did I understand that correctly?

[Mary Campbell]

Yes. Without having the two lists of offences before me, I can't swear that they're identical lists. There may be some things that relate to DNA collection that aren't necessarily sexual offences, but it is not uncommon, I would suggest, to have an offender who's subject to both of those orders at the same time.

Of course, in drafting the legislation, as Mr. Hoover has indicated, DNA legislation was already in existence and provided some guidance to Parliament.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

We've heard some evidence regarding some meetings between the former Minister of Public Safety and officials from the sex offender registry.

Ms. Campbell, I understand that you or officials under your auspices have recently met with the current minister to bring him up to speed with respect to the operation of the sex offender registry.

[Mary Campbell]

Of course, in departments, we're always in contact with the minister on important issues.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

Officer Nezan, you indicated in your opening comments that for a variety of reasons crown prosecutors will not seek an order to have convicted individuals submit to the sex offender registry. Could you tell us what some of those reasons might be?

[Insp Pierre Nezan]

Those are some of the comments reported to us from the centres. I think it's been getting better over the past four or five years. The national sex offender registry and the legislation are new, so there is the education component, not only for law enforcement but also for prosecutors, judges, and offenders.

Initially, some of the comments we were getting were about human error. Because it was new legislation, prosecutors would simply forget to request the order. Sometimes it's part of a plea bargain agreement. At other times, the police may not have provided the information.

There are a number of reasons why it hasn't been done. These reasons are some that have more commonly been referred to us.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

For the lawyers present, when a judge is examining an application for an order, is the test “beyond a reasonable doubt” or a “preponderance of evidence”, or is there some other test to determine whether an order ought to be granted? Is it reviewable by an appellate court?

[Douglas Hoover]

Certainly, it's reviewable by appeal. The test is that the court must be satisfied, on balance, that the offender has demonstrated that it's grossly disproportionate. The onus is on the offender. According to the various courts of appeal decisions, he must do something specific, in that he must bring forward evidence.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

In Ontario, do the crowns seek an order, since under the Ontario registry the conviction will be automatically registered?

[Mary Campbell]

Under the Ontario registry, the registration order simply issues as a matter of administration. No one asks for it. Upon conviction for a specified offence, it simply happens. That's usually the process that automatic inclusion refers to.