Public Safety Committee on April 28th, 2009

[Dr. Raymond Prime]

We have to get the universities interested in doing that. Canada is a small market, so it is a challenge. We've had linkages with the University of Toronto to develop a forensic science program, and some of their students come into our lab periodically, and we do work with other universities to do that.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Is there not a new lab, though, developed at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology? Aren't they doing forensics?

[Dr. Raymond Prime]

Yes, there's a program at the University of Toronto, and there is one at UOIT, which you referred to, and there are some in the north. There are a lot of programs. We're calling it the CSI effect. Lots of kids want to go into forensic science right now.

I need one second to just pick up on something I heard you say, Mr. Oliphant, in the beginning of your introduction. You said something about the taking away of judicial discretion creating more work for us. I want to make it clear that the work we do in the lab is not impacted by the judicial discretion, which, as I understand it, is the judge providing a ruling that samples go to the national DNA data bank. That component would not bring more work into our lab.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Séguin, did you have a comment?

[Diane Séguin]

Yes.

I attend international conventions, as does Mr. Newman, and we really focus on research and development. We have to keep up to date with other world class laboratories. We must be able to compare our results to those of other countries, be it the United States, Latin America or even Europe. We must maintain this level and, to do so, we need resources to continue our research and development.

There are students from Lausanne, Switzerland, who come to Quebec for lab internships because our technology really is quite advanced. We present studies we have done in the lab at international conventions. Therefore, it is very important to maintain our level. Research and development is very important. It cannot simply be cast aside.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. McColeman, please.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I, too, would like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to come and educate us on this very important technology from a science point of view.

I do want to carry on a little deeper with the questioning on the service model, which Mr. Oliphant just moved into. I just want to understand it.

Because there is an emerging demand for this, have you noticed private providers cropping up? Are there people who see being a private provider of this service as a possible enterprise?

[Frédérick Laberge]

In Quebec, there is one company which would like to enter the fray, but only one at this point. It should also be noted that when compared with the private sector, our quality-assurance criteria are extremely high.

At this point, our laboratory is in the process of ISO certification, which we will probably obtain over the course of this year. These providers would have to obtain ISO accreditation to be able to provide services. It is not an easy thing to obtain.

[Diane Séguin]

There is the issue of the chain of possession we referred to earlier on. When police officers bring us cases, the chain of possession internally, within the lab, is guaranteed. Samples are brought to us, we can confirm their integrity throughout the process. And when we issue a report and see a match, obviously we don't simply note that there is a match and provide information: we analyze the case and ensure the match is valid, and that all aspects of the case have been verified.

It becomes difficult if you go through the private sector to deal with one element in the chain, to ensure the integrity of the chain of possession. So it is also important for us to control all aspects of the analyses during the entire process.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I understand that and accept it. I guess I'm drawing a parallel in my mind, rightly or wrongly, with the health care system and diagnostic work that's done in that system, both in government and, as a separate entity, in private labs.

Are you aware of any examples of police departments directly using private service providers for this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Prime, I think you'd like to comment on both of those issues.

[Dr. Raymond Prime]

I'll comment on both issues. I'd like to mention that my experience with private sector forensic applications is that because it is a very narrow and small field, it's not a really profitable business to get into. Historically, the people who have provided private service in forensic science have been those who provide testimony for alcohol and impaired driving, because there's a large volume of court work, or people who do handwriting comparisons, because they don't have a lot of overhead to deal with.

There have been some small ventures into DNA in Ontario. Maxxam was mentioned, and there are some at Lakehead University. Generally, these are businesses that are tacked on to another kind of forensic business, such as paternity testing, where you have the volume. It's a small field, and it often comes because they can attract people who are already fully trained from labs like ours and the RCMP's, and perhaps the Quebec lab. So there is that difference.

Could you remind me of the second part of your question?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

The second question was whether you are aware of any police departments, be they municipal, provincial, or national, that are going directly to private labs.

[Dr. Raymond Prime]

The police in Ontario might go to a private lab after they've exhausted all possibilities with us. They are free to do that, and we know that from time to time they have done it.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Following that thinking, I'd like to understand better the model that was set up in Quebec and Ontario, having made a decision—I assume it's a provincial government decision—to set up separate entities. Perhaps it's a volume issue. Why are there three entities, meaning Quebec's, Ontario's, and the national one, instead of one national one? They don't exist in other provinces.

[Frédérick Laberge]

In Quebec and in Ontario we have provincial police forces, the Sûreté du Québec and the OPP. These police forces are different than those in other provinces and territories.

Forensics are a provincial area of jurisdiction.

[Yves Dufour]

I'd like to point out that our laboratory, in Quebec, was founded in 1914, 95 years ago. It is the oldest laboratory in North America. The second one was created in Chicago in 1928.

You ask whether police officers would want to deal with private companies for DNA analysis. It is the confidence they have in our laboratory and in the other types of services we provide that has them coming back to us, because they are sure the services they will receive will be state-of-the-art.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

What ministry do you function under provincially?

[Dr. Raymond Prime]

It's the Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

And what one is it in Quebec?

[Yves Dufour]

In Quebec, it is the Ministry of Public Safety.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll come back later.

We'll now go over to the Bloc Québécois.

Ms. Mourani, please.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I have a brief question and I will then hand over the floor to my colleague Mr. Ménard.

If I understand correctly, even though your organization reports to the Ministry of Public Safety, it is not linked to the police. You are an arm's length institution. Is that correct?