Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Howard Sapers]

I would agree that a number of policy changes in other jurisdictions have resulted in populations of the mentally ill being in the community. For some of those folks, they come into conflict with the law. For some of those folks, they find their way into federal penitentiaries. In fact, I think you can track some of the growth in the mentally ill being in federal corrections because of other policy changes elsewhere.

But it's not just the de-institutionalization; there are policies around zero tolerance, and engaging the police in situations today that perhaps the police wouldn't have been engaged in a decade or more ago, and using the courts in some ways today that perhaps weren't being used a decade or more ago.

So it's not simply de-institutionalization. A number of policy changes, I think, have contributed.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Right, but if you will, the provincial institutions and the other facilities were part of the tool box that police officers used to have. They could use discretion instead of making criminal charges. The mental health act and other tools of that nature have been removed.

I am not blaming any one body, but we as a society have moved those folks who should have been treated probably for mental health issues from the mental health side into the corrections side. Then we're trying to deal with it in a backhanded way, which may be somewhat ineffective.

[Howard Sapers]

I certainly support the underlying thesis in your analysis, but of course I have blinders on when I appear before you--

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

No, I understand.

[Howard Sapers]

--in terms of talking about what happens now.

The Correctional Service of Canada doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing who comes through their gate, but they do have a legal responsibility to deal with them once they get them. Really, that's what the focus is. But I agree with you in terms of dealing with a different population than they've been challenged with previously.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

The other thing is that you have indicated some pure numbers of money going into the system. I think one was an additional $21 million. As a group, we all agree that we need more professional mental health providers, but you've also told us that part of the problem is that they're not available to put into the system to provide the care that folks who need mental health....

[Howard Sapers]

Yes. A large part of what we've talked about today, of course, is the challenge the service has in recruiting and retaining mental health professionals. Those folks are being trained, and they are available for employment; it's just a question of getting them to choose the Correctional Service of Canada.

Another aspect that we haven't talked about much is the mental health training that would benefit other workers—the 41% of the workforce, for example, of the Correctional Service of Canada who are correctional officers. They could benefit from such training, which would allow them to do their jobs in a more safe and humane way, recognizing that they're dealing with mental health issues instead of, perhaps, just oppositional or other behaviour-related issues.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

It's a real challenge for society. Clearly we wouldn't want to turn federal corrections into state-of-the-art mental health facilities. This is why Mr. Sapers has called for a national strategy on correction and mental health, because it goes far beyond corrections. If we could ensure that there are preventative measures, that there is support, out-patient services, and then a strengthening of provincial psychiatric hospitals, we would probably not be where we are right now.

Clearly, our dilemma is that we currently have offenders who have severe mental health issues that are not being addressed. As an ombudsman office, we have to raise that issue. At the same time, we don't want to turn federal corrections into state-of-the-art psychiatric facilities. That experiment failed over 30 years ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Here is one brief question from the chair related to what members have asked: is there any country that does a better job or that we could use as a model for the topic we're dealing with today?

[Howard Sapers]

I don't know. We have recommended to the Correctional Service of Canada that they immediately engage in a consultation looking at alternative mechanisms for delivering health care generally and mental health care specifically. We know that there are some very interesting models to look at in New South Wales, Australia, and in some other jurisdictions as well. We've asked that they do that analysis as they move forward. This is in response to our findings from our review of deaths in custody, specifically Ashley Smith's death.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It would be helpful if you could, perhaps in writing, give us some indication of where we could look for models in this area.

[Howard Sapers]

Yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I can answer that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You can answer that question?

Monsieur Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

There is Sweden, Japan, and some of the European countries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Well, we'll maybe investigate this.

Thank you very much.

We have to clear this room at 11 o'clock, and I have notice of a motion, so we want to thank you very much.

We're going to suspend for a very brief moment and move into the last part of our meeting for five minutes.

[Howard Sapers]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the members, for the opportunity to have this discussion. I really appreciate the latitude with which you've run this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Very good.

Let's take 30 seconds, if we can just switch over here.

Okay, let's draw ourselves back together. We have to clear the room in four and a half minutes.

We're going into the business of the committee portion of the meeting.

Mr. Holland, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I could, I'm just giving notice of motion.

Mr. Chair, it was indeed with surprise that I saw the government introduce legislation yesterday on the sex offender registry, probably less than two weeks from when this committee was completing a mandatory review. I know that government members were very anxious to see this done. It was important work and the committee made accommodation for it.

You know, all of that was tossed out of the window. I think it was a completely disrespectful act, and I think the committee needs to voice its displeasure. It was a complete waste of this committee's time and energy, and now we're left with whatever the government legislation is, not having taking into consideration the work that was asked of this committee.

I think any member of this committee should be deeply disappointed with that, particularly given the fact that the government only had to wait a very brief period of time to hear our conclusions. It's one thing to be ignored--certainly, we're used to that--but to not even wait until we say something to ignore it is a whole new level.

We'll be introducing a motion on that to debate, but I wanted to speak to that, to let him know it was coming Thursday, because I was greatly disappointed with the way that was handled.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. That's the notice of motion.

On the second issue you have, we'll move in camera.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

In camera, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll suspend for 30 seconds, and as soon as we're ready, we'll go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]