Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sexual.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

October 22nd, 2009 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I now bring to order the 35th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today we are considering Bill C-34, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and other Acts.

We welcome to our committee the Honourable Peter Van Loan, the Minister of Public Safety, and Ms. Mary Campbell, director general of the corrections and criminal justice directorate.

Welcome. We appreciate you appearing before the committee today. You've been waiting patiently for more than 10 minutes already.

I'd remind the committee that this is a televised meeting. The usual practice is to allow the minister an opening statement of approximately 10 minutes or so, and then we will go to questions and comments.

Mr. Minister, anytime you are ready, we welcome your comments.

11:05 a.m.

York—Simcoe Ontario

Conservative

Peter Van Loan ConservativeMinister of Public Safety

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for the invitation to appear before this committee to assist with your deliberations on Bill C-34.

I have with me today, as you heard from the chair, Mary Campbell, who is the director general of the corrections and criminal justice directorate at the public safety department.

The Bill before you today is important. It fulfils the commitment I believe all of us share to protect the safety and security of Canadians and in particular to protect the safety and security of Canada's most valuable asset — our youth.

This is the type of important work that all of us who undertake to become elected officials would like to see us working on. We want to make a difference in people's lives, to make sure that men, women, and children who we represent are safe and secure in their day-to-day lives. That's exactly what this kind of bill does.

The bill introduces much needed reform to strengthen the National Sex Offender Registry and the DNA Databank. It is based on extensive consultations with law enforcement officials, provincial and territorial officials and victims' rights organizations.

We do have, in dealing with this legislation, the opportunity to benefit from the track record of the existing registry, of course, and the track records of registries in various provinces.

In particular, I look at my province of Ontario, where David Turnbull, the Solicitor General, brought in a sex offender registry well before the federal one, and it in fact includes some of the changes we are proposing here, including mandatory inclusion. That has worked well in practice, so that gives us an opportunity to have seen some of these provisions in practice. That helps us out in our considerations even though, of course, that registry predates the federal registry.

I know we can work together here in a spirit of cooperation and common purpose to make sure that the registry is truly an effective tool for the police in investigating and preventing serious sexual crimes. That's what the amendments in front of us seek to do. As honourable members of the committee are aware, the sex offender identification registry act proposes several fundamental reforms to the present legislation.

These include, firstly, the automatic inclusion in the registry of all individuals found guilty of sex offences. Right now, as you know, it's necessary for a judge to order, on application by the crown, the inclusion of someone into the registry.

There may be debates about the range of numbers of those who are not included, but what is indisputable is that a significant number of people are not included. There are different reasons for that. Sometimes it's the result of a plea bargain. Often, we're told, it's simply a question of oversight. Busy crowns who are working through their stacks of files on a particular day omit, or forget, or don't think about the notion of actually asking for inclusion when they get the order from the judge.

That is something that would be addressed. As I said, it would be as it is in the Ontario legislation, where inclusion is automatic with conviction, so that problem will be solved with this legislation.

Another element is that mandatory DNA sampling will occur for convicted sex offenders who receive an automatic order to register on the national sex offender registry.

Another area is one that police and victims groups have asked for, and that is to permit the proactive use of the registry by the police to prevent, not just investigate, sexual offences.

Some of you know that there is a substantial element in the community out there that lobbies me, and perhaps many of you, on the notion that the sex offender registry should also include public access, not just police access. I have determined and the government has determined that this is perhaps not wise.

We believe the current protections, which leave the decision on the public release of information up to local police in those circumstances, are the appropriate approach. So we are not proposing that change, although some have asked for it.

As for the registration of offenders returning to Canada under the International Transfer of Offenders Act, we are now going to have it result in automatic registration if they are convicted abroad of sex offences and are returning to Canada at the end of their sentence or to complete their sentence in Canada. In either context, if they are returning, we're going to capture them.

The problem is, of course, that right now this is not the case. As we know with the changes in the world, some countries have a higher incidence of child sex offences. We're seeing child sex industries abroad. We're seeing increased tourism for that purpose. Some think they can escape the consequences of committing those kinds of offences abroad. We want to make sure that those consequences aren't escaped here and that the community is protected from people who represent that kind of risk.

In terms of the transfer, the legislation proposes that their inclusion would be automatic. It can be automatic because a decision on the transfer of an offender is one that is made by the Minister of Public Safety. That decision is obviously one that has a record, so there can be effective automatic inclusion.

The more challenging scenario is, of course, that of someone who is never transferred and never seeks a transfer, someone who completes their sentence in another country and who has a conviction that we may not even know about. Of course, the answer in this legislation is to create a requirement that they register and an offence for failure to register on their return to Canada. Obviously this will not be 100% foolproof, but it certainly creates a law that must be complied with, just like any other law, and it creates an opportunity to prosecute those individuals who don't comply.

Internationally, we have very good information-sharing with many of our partners in law enforcement, like Interpol and others. There is a vast degree of information-sharing that will help police to enforce this law if it comes into force. Certainly, I know that law enforcement is very supportive of this amendment.

An additional change that's being proposed is in the same vein but reciprocal: to require police notification to foreign or other Canadian police jurisdictions when high-risk registered sex offenders are travelling to another area. This speaks to our concern about sex tourism. Someone who's convicted here may decide to travel to another location to engage in the same unacceptable behaviour. This will create an obligation and an opportunity to protect young people abroad. We should be concerned not just with the consequences here in Canada, but also with the welfare of young people throughout the world.

Amendments to the National Defence Act are also included to ensure that the reforms apply to the military justice system, to those who are convicted of sex offences at court martial.

I believe the bill before us sends a strong message to all Canadians that their voices are being heard. Canadians want individuals who are found guilty of crimes to serve a sentence that reflects the severity of those crimes. They want to know that individuals who are guilty of serious sex crimes are properly identified in the community, because they realize that knowledge affords protection. It's important for the police to have all the tools they need to assist in assuring the community is protected. They know it's not enough to investigate crimes after they happen—they want to be able to assure community protection.

This will give Canadians a greater sense of safety in their homes, their streets, and their communities. They want to know that somebody is making an effort to keep their children safe, and they're looking to us to take action on this now. That's why I'm glad we're bringing this bill forward.

Since 2006 our government has taken action in a number of areas to tackle crime and make communities safer for everyone. We've cracked down on gangs and organized crime. We've come up with tough new sentencing rules, mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes, and the like. We've given police more tools and resources to do their jobs, and we're continuing to do that. We've introduced measures to tackle drug dealers and help our youth stay out of trouble with the law. We've increased funding for crime prevention. Prevention, crime reduction, increased enforcement, serious consequences—all these are essential elements of a comprehensive approach to making our communities safer and addressing crime.

We've taken steps to ensure that young people stay safe online. I know that members of this committee support these efforts to protect the safety and security of Canadians, and I'm confident that the provisions of Bill C-34 also have your support.

I look forward to working with members of this committee to see that this bill gets the speedy passage I believe it warrants.

I'm happy to take any questions--and let Mary answer all the hard ones.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate your comments.

According to the usual practice of this committee, we will begin with the official opposition, the Liberal Party.

Mr. Kania.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Briefly, so that you understand my frame of reference, I support the bill. I've already spoken in the House to that effect. Specifically, I have stated that I don't think it's strong enough. So that's my frame of reference.

The first question is this: were you aware that we had already held three days of hearings on April 21 and 23 and May 12 of this year?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Yes, I was well aware of that. In the preparation of this legislation, the government had the benefit of the testimony that was before the committee in those hearings. I think what you want to know is why the legislation was brought forward before you completed your study. The reason is plain: it was long overdue; the bill was required. We had the benefit of the evidence that was before you, and that's why we thought it was appropriate to proceed without further delay.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

We had not yet prepared a report; in fact, that's something we're still working on.

So you agree with me that you actually did not have the benefit of the opinion of this committee, with its recommendations, in terms of what should be included in the bill, before you introduced your bill. Correct?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Well, not having prepared your report, obviously we don't have the benefit of your report. I also don't think we should wait. I think it would have been a bad thing if we had delayed another year to get these changes made.

I will point out that the review that was required of this committee under the legislation was required a number of years ago. You were written to by my predecessor on November 13, 2007--that's almost two years ago--asking you to get on with the study so that it could be dealt with, so that we could bring forward changes. I know the parliamentary secretary, David MacKenzie, I believe a week later, spoke at this committee about the urgency of getting on with doing that study.

I make no apologies for not having waited for that process to bring into place amendments that are very, very important. You have an opportunity through this process, through the bill itself, through the clause-by-clause process, to give real life to real changes in a far more weighty way than simply doing a report and study.

We did have the benefit of it--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Could I interrupt there? I only have seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

--but I do think the notion that we have to leave people vulnerable for a longer period of time so that parliamentarians can take an extra year to prepare a report, while they're busy chasing down issues....

I can't remember, but there were all kinds of trivial issues that were before this committee. They had to do with, I don't know, Mulroney-Schreiber or other stuff, I can't remember--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Can I ask more questions, please?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Well, I'm explaining to you. You asked--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

I think I have the answer.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I'm explaining to you why I felt it was important to move forward with legislation without further delay. That's why it's important.

I know the committee had been taken hold of by all kinds of other political issues that were partisanly motivated in a pre-election context. We have an obligation. I have an obligation as public safety minister to make sure that Canadians are kept safe--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Minister, I would like to ask some more questions, please.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

--and that's why I brought forward the legislation at the time I did.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay. You had your 10 minutes. I really want to ask some questions.

I understand what you're saying. You think it should have been done before you had the benefit of the recommendations of the committee, which I don't agree with. The reason I don't agree with it is because there are glaring errors in the bill, which would have been addressed in advance if you had waited for the report of the committee.

So that's what I want to go through now, the errors that this committee...and when you eventually read the report, you'll understand.

An example is licence plates. You say you had the benefit of all the evidence of these various groups. But all the evidence indicated that licence plates and the description of the vehicles that these offenders have should be included in the registry. It's not in your bill. You indicated that you had the benefit of all of this evidence. Why, even though this was one of the strongest points that was made by these various groups, did you omit that clear improvement that should have been made?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

On the issue of vehicle licence plate inclusion in the registry of vehicle descriptions, there are two legitimate perspectives. I think they're both legitimate. One is what you referred to, which addresses inclusion that the police say would be an aid to them. The other is the concern that by doing it through vehicle registration, you're casting the net potentially too wide.

Vehicle registration is not limited, and vehicle driving, as you know, is not limited, to the individual who's registered. Ownership is not limited to that. We are asking through these amendments to allow a more proactive use of the registry to prevent crimes from happening, meaning people may be stopped, asked what they're doing and the like, as part of police efforts to keep a community safe. You are extending that to potentially capture, in effect, people who are not the owners of vehicles.

Additionally, you are flagging for offenders that they have to register their vehicle and their vehicle description on a regular basis. So if somebody is a calculating sex offender, they may choose to ensure that their vehicle is, on paper, owned and registered by their mother or another family member, and thereby avoid the capture under the registration. Police already have access to drivers through licence information and to the sex offender registry in general. So that's the argument on the one side.

The legitimate argument on the other side, that you hear from law enforcement and others, is that the availability of that information consolidated in one place can be very helpful to them, that it may be able to, at the same time, in certain circumstances, allow them to deal with a situation quickly, while it develops.

I believe both of those arguments have merit. The decision I took in preparing the bill, having heard that evidence, being aware of it, being aware of those arguments on all sides, was not to include it. I understand that others on the committee may have a different view. I know that certainly the Conservative members of the committee have spoken to me strongly about their desire to have an amendment that would include vehicle information like that.

I'm quite fine with that. One of the roles of a parliamentary committee is to do that. This opportunity to deal with the bill clause-by-clause creates that opportunity, as I told those members, to bring forward an amendment like that if they believe it is important. The government is quite happy to have an amendment like that, if that is the will of the members of the committee. As I said, I know the government members, Ms. Glover, Mr. MacKenzie, Mr. Norlock, have all been very proactive on advancing those issues with me, and have advanced that process.

That's available to you. That's how a parliamentary committee works. I don't think we should have waited another year to have that go into law, because you still haven't finished your report.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Briefly, please.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

I'd like to know what evidence—since you say you had the benefit of the evidence—you relied upon, what testimony from anybody saying that vehicle licence plates should not be included. Because I recall everybody strongly recommending that this take place. I can't believe you would have formed the opinion, since you said you did and you decided not to include it, that you would have done that in contravention of all of the evidence that was uniform in saying it should be included.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

As you know, and I know you're a lawyer and very knowledgeable about the law, you do not have to be the owner of a vehicle to be allowed to drive that vehicle. I think that's self-evident. I think that's something that a decision-maker would take into account.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Your time is up. We'll come back.

For the Bloc Québécois, Ms. Mourani, please.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Minister. Good morning, Ms. Campbell. Thank you for being here with us today.

We are in agreement with the principle underlying this bill. We are obviously in favour of the protection of children. However, I would like you to clarify a few points for me.

Were your bill to become law, could a young man aged 18 having had sexual contact with a 15 and a half year-old-girl see his name added to this registry, if a parent lodged a complaint and the young man were found guilty? Consent not being a ground of defence, could this young man's name appear for several years in the Sex Offender Registry?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

It of course would depend on the nature of the act in which the individual had engaged. If it was an act prohibited under the Criminal Code, yes, they would be included. If it was consensual sex, they would not. As you know, a consenting sexual act between someone aged 15 and someone aged 18 is not a prohibited act for which you can be convicted. Sixteen is the age of consent under the law now, but there is also a close-in-age exemption. So if there was a three-year difference between the individuals, there is an exemption for someone who is under that age.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Yes, but if the parent were to lodge a complaint...

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

So they would not be captured for it, they could not be convicted of a sexual offence in most circumstances, and as a result they could not be included in the registry.