Correct.
Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prisons.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prisons.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
If they do receive adequate treatment in prison before they're released and then they're released with a form of conditional release so they're supervised and integrated in the community, they ordinarily reintegrate better and--the key here--reoffend less, correct?
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
The statistics show, I understand, that for every person incarcerated it costs about $101,000 per year for them, and for somebody under conditional release it's approximately $25,000 per year, correct?
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Okay.
For the Conservatives' law and order agenda, you would think that if they're going to spend an extra $75,000 per year per person to keep them in jail there should be some positive benefits from that for society at large or for the individuals. Correct?
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
What I'd like to know is, are there any positive benefits whatsoever on this current law and order agenda or do you think this is something else?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I've heard prisons described as high-wage, non-polluting job factories for prison guards, but not in terms of crime reduction, no.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Okay, so for crime reduction or reintegration of the prisoners, these law and order reforms that they're pushing through Parliament are going to hurt, not help the problem that we currently have. Is that correct?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I think you can go even further. You'd have to get this from another person, but you really have to ask about the working conditions in the prisons themselves under conditions of overcrowding.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Right. But once again, these various changes they're putting through, I would suggest to you they're exactly wrong and the opposite of what we should be doing. These will hurt Canadians generally because we will have increased incidents of reoffending, and it will hurt the prisoners because they will not get the treatment they need before they're released.
Do you both agree with that?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
That's the evidence from the United States and the U.K.
Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual
That is the primary problem. As the previous member said, we also have to look at the positives, and there have been some positives. In particular, the mental health strategy started in 2004 by the Correctional Service of Canada has been widely accepted as a good strategy. It certainly doesn't make the psychiatric facilities into ideal places, but it is a logical, systematic approach. It was endorsed by the Sampson committee as well.
The problem is, I think, that there is no hope of that being achieved because of the counter kinds of decisions that are being made and the impact that will have on institutions. We'll never be able to build institutions fast enough to keep up with the growth. That alone, that growth in prison population, will mean that it's almost impossible to deliver on that plan, even though it's a solid plan.
That is the issue. It is the context in which that plan was developed, not the plan itself. I think we've got good ideas, but can we deliver?
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
My understanding is that right now a large percentage of the populous are not getting the treatment they require, and when they're released they are not able to be released through a conditional mechanism because they haven't received the treatment. So really, what's going to occur with these Conservative changes is that things will get even worse than they are now. Is that correct?
Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual
Yes. One of that we talk about is whether they should be in the community or in prison. The reality is that everybody is going to be in the community. Everybody gets released. It's just a question of whether it's now or later. It's a question of the conditions under which they're released. We can leave them there a little longer, because parole will become almost possible for these people to achieve--statutory release would be abolished--and then dump them into the community having had less treatment and no support. That's one option.
We can't talk about improving mental health services in prisons and ignore that context, in my view. We will have them in the community. The question is whether we will hold for ourselves the opportunity to guide that movement into the community and make sure the resources are there to minimize the possibility of reoffending.
Conservative
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Mr. Chair, I've sat here and listened to the two witnesses, and I do appreciate their position. Their position is certainly of a more partisan nature. Mr. Jones, I think so often you've mentioned this current government. We understand that. That's not the issue that we're here about. We're here about mental health, and we have the same concerns. A number of us on this side have dealt with the mental health people on the street. We understand that. We know that the provinces withdrew those services. Now, for some reason or other, you have a bent that the federal government's responsible for that.
I take it your solution would be to eliminate federal prisons. If we eliminate federal prisons, we don't have all of these problems you've indicated. I think Mr. Norlock gave you the opportunity to tell us what a facility would look like. How would we fix the institutions that the country has developed over 100 years, through all stripes of government, to get to the point you're talking about here? We understand there's a problem. We're the ones who asked to do this study. I fail to understand exactly what you're talking about.
I think you have paraphrased a little bit of what Mr. Head said in an incorrect way. Mr. Head, as I recall it, said that the government has done a great deal to put mental health at the forefront in the institutions. He's not able to hire the people he needs.
And in the illustration you had, I don't know how we'd get that lady to move closer to the institution. She lives where she lives. The institution is where it is. Short of simply opening the doors, can you tell me what we would do to fix the problem?
Conservative
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Very briefly, in terms of your comment that the Conservatives asked for this study. First, that's not accurate, because we asked for it. And second, that would be in camera communication, so I think that's not something you should be indicating.
Let's debate.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I genuinely would like to give the witnesses the opportunity to tell us how we fix the system, short of simply eliminating the facilities.
Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual
Well, quickly, we have a set of proposals. There is the mental health strategy. If we could achieve that, we will have gone a long way. That's there. I'm delighted that this committee is formed, that it's looking at this particular problem.
The point we're trying to make is that unless you take the psychiatric facilities right out of the prison system...which I think, by the way, is worth considering. You'll never get everyone with mental health problems out of the system, but for chronic continuing care, I think the question should be whether the federal correction system should be running those facilities at all.
But short of that, then we're left.... The fundamental problem I have is that the direction of corrections is going to undermine any potential to move on that strategy. That strategy is concrete. It has dollars and cents attached to it. There's a recognition generally that this is a positive thing.
My simple point today has been that you cannot look at mental health in isolation from the other directions in criminal justice.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you very much. We'll have to end it there. We're a little over time.
Thank you to our witnesses for appearing. We will suspend for a minute or two and then go in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]