Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2009

[James Budd]

In practice it is very similar to a conditional sentence. In many ways, I believe it's better than a conditional sentence, because we have such consistent monitoring of the participant who's in the program. The resolution, if there's some sort of breach, is not simply that they're back in jail or that they get to stay out of jail. There's room to work on modifying their behaviour along the way so that the behaviour doesn't repeat.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Moffat, did you want to comment on that?

[David Moffat]

You know what? This is a little close to the political bone. I'm very happy with all the tools the government is giving us, and drug treatment is one of them, and drug treatment works. But I'd say that it's very different from a conditional sentence.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

We'll go to Mr. MacKenzie now for four minutes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Dr. Ward, I know you're very young, but I expect from what we've heard that you have a wide range of experience dealing with forensic psychiatry.

One of the areas that certainly as a committee we're wrestling with, and we heard from the correctional investigator, is segregation. Is there a place for segregation in the short term, in your mind, for the extreme end of people who have mental health issues, for the protection of themselves and others? Do you know of something totally different that we have not seen in Norway, Britain, or here?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

You're asking a lot, but thanks for the compliment at the beginning.

What I would be advocating for is that there are facilities where...and there's one in Ontario, the Secure Treatment Unit. It's a provincial psychiatric hospital within a correctional facility.

Now, one of the original proposals, I understand, was to actually have a remand section for that. What I would be advocating for is that you need a remand section of a correctional facility that has schedule one hospital status so that you can also have professionals in there doing the treatment. Then, if segregation is done, it is done in a medically safe manner, with treatment there to address the underlying cause so the person can come out of segregation.

That's how I would see it.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

My recollection—and I've been in a number of institutions—is that the psychiatric facilities also have segregated facilities available to them.

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Some do, but we don't.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Whereabouts?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Here in Ottawa.

We deliberately don't, because in my opinion, when you're dealing with a psychiatric issue you can deal with that person by chemically and physically restraining them and one-on-one supervision without shutting them in a room by themselves. We have been able to manage that when we're dealing with mental illness.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

How do you administer the chemical?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

You need to be able to use the provisions under the Substitute Decisions Act or emergency provisions that allow you, as the person's treating physician, to act in their best interest. You need things available to you as a hospital facility to do that legally.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Now, you mentioned there's a correctional facility in Ontario--

[Dr. Helen Ward]

That is a hospital, yes. It's the St. Lawrence Valley Secure Treatment Unit in Brockville. It's a provincial facility, but our organization runs it, runs the psychiatric piece of it within Corrections. It is actually a psychiatric facility.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Are you aware of the correctional facility in Saskatoon that also has status?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Yes, and they run it similarly, except that it's one big conglomerate with small pieces with various types of offenders within it. But yes, it's a very interesting model.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Would that equally fit what you're seeing or suggesting with the Brockville one?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

They're pretty much equivalent. I've been to both. They're similar.

It depends. In Saskatoon, you want economies of scale by putting everything together. Here we don't necessarily need that, because we have larger populations.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

I have two quick matters before we adjourn.

First of all, Mr. Davies, I notice that you have with you today your wife and daughter. We welcome them to the committee as special guests.

Let me thank the witnesses for appearing today. Your testimony was deeply appreciated and no doubt will be invaluable to our production of a study on this matter. Thank you for appearing today.

Quickly, before we adjourn, because we have one meeting left before we recess for the Christmas break and we have one witness who will be appearing on Thursday, it would be my suggestion that we take the last half hour of the meeting on Thursday to tie up any loose ends, leave it open for discussion of future business, if the committee's amenable to that.

[An hon. member]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Does the committee agree with that? Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you again to the witnesses, and we'll see everyone Thursday.

We stand adjourned.