Right.
Evidence of meeting #42 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ottawa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #42 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ottawa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
Right.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
It's good that we've got a start, and we can build on that.
12:25 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
Absolutely.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Dr. Ward, you can perhaps share my next question with some of the others. It has to do with mental illness, and in particular my experience, primarily in Ontario.
In our travels recently across Canada in various provinces, we saw that each province has its own mental health act. I'm wondering if you or any of the other witnesses have heard of issues concerning the mental health act as those issues relate to treatments, incarceration, or a combination of the two. What would be your suggestion to us? We're looking for answers as to how we can make that work in a federal system, because the federal system is pan-Canadian, and we actually have 10 provinces and three territories, each with its own mental health act.
Could you comment on that?
12:25 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
I wish I had something brilliant to suggest. I don't think I can really give direction at this point in time. It is important to have some minimums, and if it comes from looking at crime federally, then maybe it can be transmitted that way through requirements from the courts. However, I don't know how you're going to touch the mental health acts of the provinces. I think that's part of the problem.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Moffat, have you had any experiences with respect to the differences in jurisdictions as they relate to the mental health act and the court system?
12:25 p.m.
Assistant Crown Attorney, Ministry of the Attorney General, Government of Ontario
With apologies, I've dealt with a couple of committal issues in which I've had to advise police on what they can do with civil commitments, but I really don't have enough experience to be able to speak to a difference.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Okay. Thank you very much.
I think my next question actually was to do with that, but Dr. Ward could comment.
The committee is yet to make recommendations, but my personal preference has to do with the fact that in some of the jurisdictions, partnerships are formed with academia. I'm thinking in particular of Saskatoon, where they actually changed the focus from a custodial or prison-type approach to more of a mental health or hospital approach, and there seemed to be some successes. They partnered with the province, they partnered with academia, and they partnered with other health care professionals.
Could you comment on your experiences surrounding that, so that we can formulate a good report?
12:30 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
I think it is really important to have those links. You're talking about RPC in Saskatoon. That's a real model. The bottom line is that you have to be able to get money from different sources to make this work. You have to be able to encourage that collaboration.
We see it here. We're running projects on a smaller level for housing for people involved in the not criminally responsible system. The provincial government has mandated an evaluation from the University of Ottawa, and it has our involvement as well as community agency involvement. I think that is very important.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland
I'm sorry, Mr. Norlock. There's another round coming up in just a moment, but right now I'm going to go to Mr. Oliphant for five minutes.
December 8th, 2009 / 12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses.
Probably unlike Mr. Rathgeber, I think “restorative” and “justice” are actually intimately bound, and I think you're probably getting that these days too. I would say that justice without restoration is not justice. I'm glad you're doing what you're doing.
One of the witnesses we saw a few weeks ago echoed the thought that Dr. Ward had around the criminalization of mental health, but also talked about prison having become a risk factor for mental health and addictions. The incarceration actually worsens the situation. I wondered if anybody wanted to comment on that statement that was given to us.
12:30 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
I certainly would see it anecdotally. Often it interrupts a course of treatment. People are also exposed to environments that worsen their mental health, so they come out of it often untreated and in a worse psychosis or a worse depression than they were previously. They may have become criminalized, unintentionally. I see all of that anecdotally.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
What we're trying to do is look at mental health in our prisons, but keeping them out of prison is probably the best step, if we can do that.
12:30 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
Yes, and that's why I emphasize that we should really be focusing on people who, but for their mental health, wouldn't be in there. And that isn't everyone, but it's important.
12:30 p.m.
Senior Director, Corporate Services, Rideauwood Addiction and Family Services
I'm sorry, I can't cite the specific authors, but there is a body of literature referring to corrections, to the fact that the more frequently people come in contact with the criminal justice system, they become, in effect, criminalized. If people are coming in contact with the system because of their addiction or because of their mental health, there's a very good likelihood it will continue to become worse in the future.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
My experience with addiction actually started at Rideauwood about 25 years ago in a training program that I took there for clergy, to help us understand addictions. In those 25 years my thinking has changed somewhat from what I learned at Rideauwood into more of an understanding of harm reduction as well as abstinence. Most of what I've been hearing today has to do with abstinence, and I'm wondering where you are at in your thinking on harm reduction.
12:30 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
I'd like to comment on that from the point of view of mental health. It hasn't been said yet, but the proportion of our clients in the mental health courts who have addictions is probably about 80%. But we are nowhere near expecting them to go into abstinence-based programs. In fact, best practices in concurrent disorders, which is mental health and addiction, suggest that harm reduction is the way to go.
So we rely on agencies—in our case, the Canadian Mental Health Association—that offer harm reduction programs, and we find it a fairly successful model for our particular clients.
12:30 p.m.
Senior Director, Corporate Services, Rideauwood Addiction and Family Services
I would like to say that in order to ultimately complete the drug treatment court at the highest level, abstinence is required. However, along the way we work with people where they're starting from.
It's important to understand—and it seems odd to people at first—that participants in drug treatment courts are not sanctioned by the court for drug use. They may be sanctioned for dishonesty about them, but we understand that they have many, many years with this problem and that this is an ongoing process.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
I'm actually quite familiar, and have been, with drug treatment courts. That's something I know a fair amount about. Mental health courts are new to me. I just need a little bit more information.
The government is supporting a pilot project with the six drug treatment courts. It was started in 1998 or 1999 in Toronto, so we had some experience. What's the funding arrangement for mental health courts? How does that work? The government has said they'll keep funding the drug treatment courts until 2012. Where are we at with mental health courts?
12:35 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
The short story is that there isn't one, the main difference being that the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act is federal, so it makes it much easier, whereas none of the mental health stuff comes in there. It's quite ad hoc, although I'm starting to see signs at a provincial level. Recently Ontario appointed a deputy crown attorney for mental health and they're looking at proposals, so I hope to start seeing money--but I'm not holding my breath--but at least proposals or standardization at the provincial level.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Perhaps we could start with the recommendation from this committee that mental health courts should be part of a funding plan to help mental health in prisons.
12:35 p.m.
Clinical Director, Forensic Services Champlain, Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
Yes, and it's the whole cross-ministry thing at the provincial level. There are so many ministries involved, and it makes it very difficult for anyone to step up to the plate.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal