Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2009

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

I can undertake to look into what that request was and what was provided. But as you can understand, given the nature of the report, depending on the classification of the report I might be limited in what I can provide.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I understand that, and you can let us know if you won't be producing something. But you will at least be able to tell us who made the request and when, who responded and when, and anything else about that, such as conclusions and input.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Yes, sir.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

On the O'Connor and Iacobucci reports, you made a comment that it goes without saying, and then you said that certain things in your procedures had changed because of those reports. Is there anything you did not mention about how you have changed to try to adhere to the recommendations?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Various recommendations were made on different procedures to avoid the problems that occurred with the Canadians who were tortured. Other than what you've mentioned today so far, is there anything else the RCMP has done, to the best of your knowledge, to attempt to adhere to those recommendations or change their procedures in any way?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There is time for a very brief response.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Every area of the RCMP reviewed the recommendations and made sure that the policies in place were in compliance with those recommendations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Rathgeber, please.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you for your appearance here today.

Following up on Mr. Kania's questions regarding the information provided to U.S. Homeland Security, I understand it's not uncommon for border officials or the RCMP to provide information on request to the Department of Homeland Security on border issues. Is this done as a matter of course?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

It's done as a matter of course. Border representatives work in our office here in Ottawa, and we have RCMP members working in their office.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So there would be a reciprocal arrangement. If Canada Border Services wanted United States perspectives or opinions on matters, they would likely cooperate in the preparation of a report prepared by the Canadian minister.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Yes. I know that the Canada Border Services Agency has similar arrangements with the United States agencies. The same kind of sharing or exchange takes place.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This is a collaborative arrangement between the two countries to provide border security that is reciprocally beneficial.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Absolutely.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Holland, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the things that came up during conversations I had with congressmen was the perception, still, that Canada is a safe haven for terrorists and that we have a leaky, porous border. Even in the Senate some have said that southern Toronto is teeming with terrorists. I don't know where they are. Are they all hiding in Centreville? This is a real problem. This perception has sort of ingrained itself.

I wonder if you can help us with some facts and information to combat that. As an example, one of the things I have seen that I think would be helpful, if I could get it in some form other than anecdotal, are the names on the terror watch list and the number of hits on those names at different points of entry. It would demonstrate that Canadian ports of entry are showing fewer hits on that terror watch list than are American ports of entry.

I think we have to make the point crystal clear—and maybe you would agree with me on this—that an attack on New York is more likely, or at least as likely, to come from somebody landing in Boston as from somebody coming in through Toronto. Yet that is not the perception right now. The perception is that we are allowing terrorists to come in here and that we have a weak border through which people travel south. How do we combat that perception? Do you have some empirical data you can give us? I've given you one example. Do you have others?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Mr. Holland, that's an excellent question, and actually, it is something I took to heart in my previous function, before I assumed the position of assistant commissioner of FIO. At every opportunity I've had at conferences or meetings with U.S. officials, I have focused on trying to dispel some of these myths, which have long existed, about the situation in Canada and the porousness, if you want, of our border. Rather than take the time here in the committee hearing, I can undertake to provide you with some facts about the border to dispel some of these myths.

What I would like to point out, though, is that depending on who you speak to in the U.S., those myths don't hold the same weight. The individuals we deal with on a daily basis--the enforcement representatives of the United States--have a fairly clear understanding of the reality.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

That's not so much my concern. My concern is both the population at large, which is reading very skewed editorials that aren't based on fact, and congressmen and congresswomen who don't have a lot of affiliation with the issue. One congressman told me, as a statement of fact, that those who committed 9/11 came from Canada.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

You're right.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

These are people charged with making decisions in the U.S. legislature. They believe that the 9/11 terrorists came from Canada. That's why I think we have to do a charm offensive, as legislators, to reach out and provide that information. When I was having these meetings, the problem was that I could only combat this idea with anecdotal evidence or with my own word. I think that some of that stuff about ports of entry that I was talking about, if you could provide some empirical data.... I think we have a responsibility. We have to get down there and get the real story out, because stuff that you would think is a ridiculous urban legend exists as fact there. They really believe it. That has a hugely detrimental impact on our trading relationship.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

I couldn't agree with you more. Actually, I'm very happy to hear you say this.

In my previous life, we put an initiative in place specifically targeting this. We prepared presentations and actually travelled to Washington to meet with legislators, staffers, and embassy folks to provide them with that information so we could dispel some of those realities that they believe actually take place.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

One of the biggest concerns that comes up is the ability to share information. We have to do it to maintain a free and open border. But by the same token, there are a lot of Canadians who fear that if that information is given, it will be misused or will be used in relation to something we would disagree with. How do we make sure that there is containment of that information and that the information isn't used by U.S. agencies for other purposes, purposes we would have concerns about with respect to the privacy of Canadian citizens?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

In terms of our ability to make sure that it will be never be used, we don't have that ability. What we have is an understanding and a trust that goes back many, many years. There have been instances when maybe that trust was breached. But for the most part, in my experience, there is a clear understanding, on both sides of the border, of what this information, this intelligence being shared, can be used for. And it is hugely respected.