Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2009

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'd add a third concern about wrong information being shared, so verification is very important.

[Supt Warren Coons]

And this is part of the protocols, as well, that we make sure that the information is verified. If we do find out that some of the information that was provided was inaccurate, there are provisions in there that we go back and correct those errors in information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. We have to wrap up this round.

Mr. Richards, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you.

I apologize if I'm a little difficult to listen to today; I've got a pretty bad cold.

Thank you all for being here.

I'm going to focus a little bit on organized crime.

Last night I was waiting for my medication to kick in so I could get some sleep and I was watching a program on CNN about the Mexico-U.S. border and the problems they're dealing with in terms of organized crime and drugs.

Certainly the problem with organized crime here in Canada is nowhere near the level of what we see in Mexico, but it is still in fact a problem here in Canada, and I think one that's becoming more of a problem on a daily basis almost. When we deal with these issues with organized crime, it stems from drugs, it stems from the violence they bring to our society.

First of all, we have this issue within the broader society to deal with, and I think our government has taken some good strong steps to deal with organized crime. But from a border perspective, can you tell me, particularly with regard to the smuggling of weapons, the smuggling of drugs, what's being done to put a stop to allowing these gangs to do this smuggling and use that to then carry out their activities here in Canada?

I know that you've had a chance to highlight a little bit about the firearms side of it, but can you share with us a little more about what's being done on that side to deal with the smuggling of drugs, the smuggling of firearms? That is, of course, what allows the gangs to carry out their organized crime.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Thank you, Mr. Richards. Thank you very much for the question.

It's a very broad question that would require a lengthy and detailed response. For the purpose of the hearings here today, what I can say is there's actually quite a bit that's going on. It goes to the intelligence-led model that is implemented to enforce the security of the border.

In my opening remarks I spoke of the layered approach, I spoke of the importance of ensuring seamless sharing of information and collaboration among the teams that are operating inland with the teams that are operating on the border. In essence, I can make the distinction, to start with, that we do not focus on the commodity. If a criminal organization is operating on the border, today they might be smuggling narcotics, tomorrow individuals, and the day after it could be firearms. These organizations are in the business of operating to make a profit, and the commodity to them becomes secondary.

So the importance for us is to ensure that we have as accurate a picture as we can of what is happening in the U.S., in Canada, and on the border. This is where the sharing of information protocol becomes very important, and this is where the work of IBET is important, developing on a yearly basis threat assessments on the activities that are happening at the border. On a yearly basis, all the agencies get back together--this includes the five core agencies, as well as the 50-some other agencies that are participating in IBET--and compare their intelligence to identify exactly where the activities are taking place, which organizations are involved in them, and what commodity they're involved in. So this is an ongoing process.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I think it was you, Mr. Cabana, who in your opening statement mentioned briefly this “Shiprider” program. I wanted to give you an opportunity to highlight that a little bit more. I assume that it would be dealing with smuggling, dealing with drugs and guns that are being smuggled. Can you help me to be sure that is in fact what is being dealt with there, and, if so, how effectively is it being dealt with? And maybe you could even give me some measurable results or some examples, if possible.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Shiprider actually is a proved concept. There have been four different exercises to date—I believe the first one was in 2006—looking at specifically changing the processes, changing how law enforcement interact on the border to try to interdict some of the criminal activity that is taking place on the border.

Shiprider involved the RCMP and U.S. Coast Guard co-manning each others' vessels. In other words, you would have a U.S. Coast Guard member who would be patrolling on one of our RCMP vessels and you would have RCMP members who would be patrolling on a U.S. Coast Guard vessel on the U.S. side of the border. Both countries have entered into agreement for administrative forbearance of some of the cross-border legislation that is in place now in Canada to be able to, in essence, eliminate the existence of the border for the enforcement effort.

Criminal organizations that are operating on the border, although it is a vulnerability for them, are still operating with relative impunity in terms of crossing the border back and forth. For a law enforcement officer to be able to do the same thing, up until now, we can't. We have regulations that we need to respect. In terms of cross-border carriage of firearms, in terms of peace officer designation in the other jurisdiction, all of those do not exist.

Shiprider was specifically put in place for both countries to be able to see if a different model would work better. It was also put in place to have a look at the impact such a model would have on criminality at the border and how criminality was operating, to see if there were possibilities in enhancing the coordination of what is happening in the marine environment with what's happening on the land environment, and to be able to create displacement to direct the criminal activity to an area where we were better equipped to interdict it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll go over to the Bloc Québécois now.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

Good day, gentlemen. Thank you for coming.

First of all, can I ask you some questions about NORAD? Are you familiar with this agency?

[Barry MacKillop]

No.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Very well.

I would like to discuss your activities on native reserves. For example, it's no secret that the Akwesasne reserve straddles the Canada-U.S. border and that the St. Lawrence Seaway is used freely.

What is your authority on reserves? What can you tell me about native reserves along the border?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Clearly they present—

[Barry MacKillop]

—some challenges.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

When we conduct our operations on native reserves located close to the border, we face some unique challenges that may not necessarily arise elsewhere in the country. However, the enduring principle is collaboration and forging partnerships with aboriginal police forces working in this area. We face additional challenges in working with aboriginal police forces on a daily basis.

Joe, I don't know if you want to add something.

[Supt Joe Oliver]

I think there's an opportunity to highlight some of the exceptional work. IBET is well placed in the Cornwall area, and they actually have a very good working relationship with the aboriginal community as well as the U.S. law enforcement agencies.

Just going back to the Shiprider concept, it was in that environment in which the Shiprider model was deployed, and it proved to be a successful enforcement response model for that environment: a combination of working with the law enforcement agencies in the area, the ability operationally for law enforcement agencies to cross the border and to coordinate with land operations as well. It's an area that is fairly volatile in terms of the smuggling, and it's that type of innovative law enforcement response that, through the Cross-Border Crime Forum, Canada and the U.S. are trying to develop in order to provide appropriate responses, depending on the unique geographical and crime problems in each area.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You talked about challenges, Mr. Cabana. What specific challenges do you face?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

The challenges vary depending on the type of property or crime being investigated. Agreements between Aboriginals and the Canadian government, or the way in which some of these agreements are interpreted, can cause problems, particularly as far as tobacco is concerned. With respect to more traditional types of crime, such as drugs and so forth, the problems we face are different and cooperation is far more extensive. All of these sensitive issues must be taken into account when formulating an investigation strategy involving a native reserve.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In some respects, it also depends on the goods.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

To a large extent, yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Do police respond the same way on native reserves, whether it be carrying out an arrest or conducting an investigation, when drugs or firearms are involved?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

The response is pretty much the same. The same procedures are followed. In Quebec, for example, in areas where the Quebec Provincial Police or a municipal police force is the primary policing body, clearly some sensitive issues will be taken into consideration. We cooperate with these individuals. The same holds true on reserves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have one minute.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Regarding weapons smuggling, statistics show that between 80% and 90% of illegal weapons arrive in Canada via the United States, primarily over land. Do you think the problem of weapons smuggling is compounded by the widespread availability of guns in the United States? The U.S. has a different relationship with guns than Canada has. Carrying a weapon is almost a constitutional right in the U.S. Guns are sold legally. A large number of weapons that come into the country, whether through identity fraud or some other means, were initially purchased legally in the U.S. Do you feel that the lack of standardization between U.S. and Canadian weapons laws has repercussions here in Canada?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Ms. Mourani, it's realistic to believe that this does have an impact of some kind, but I have no idea of how big an impact. Even if our laws were standardized, there would still be weapons smuggling. However, I'm not in a position to say right now what impact this may be having on us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Kania, please.