Public Safety Committee on April 29th, 2010

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Who within Transport Canada is the final decision-maker?

[Gerard McDonald]

That responsibility has been delegated to our deputy minister.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So the deputy minister makes this decision.

It's interesting, because we value our fundamental freedom of movement. We're placing a restriction on people's ability to have that freedom of movement. We have a bureaucratic system that acts as judge and jury with no ability of individuals to respond.

Here's where the problem is. I heard your comment that we want to surprise them, catch them at the counter. There's no criminal charge in this. Let's take a look at these potential circumstances. You said this information is shared with many third countries.

[Gerard McDonald]

Excuse me, no, I did not say that. We do not share the list with any other country.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So it is not shared.

[Gerard McDonald]

It is not shared with any other country.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So it's strictly shared with airlines that would have their ticket counters in these countries. So let's say somebody was boarding a plane from Syria to Canada, coming to Montreal, and they're prevented from boarding. They raise a fuss. The ticket agent has to call authorities. What would they tell the authorities there why the person has been prevented from boarding the plane?

[Gerard McDonald]

It's a hypothetical situation, so I wouldn't know what the ticket agent would tell the person if they were denied boarding.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

What I'm getting at is the fundamental principle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Wrap it up.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Just the fundamental principle that you're judged guilty and a freedom is impinged upon with no opportunity to either clarify or agree that perhaps there is good reason.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, we'll have to continue that discussion later.

Mr. Rathgeber, I've got an indication you're sharing your time with Ms. Glover. Is that right?

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That's correct. I only have one question.

How do you handle the situation of individuals with multiple names? Certainly my name is fairly uncommon and Mr. Wrzesnewskyj's name is fairly uncommon, but I happen to know three individuals named Don or Donald Davies. What criteria are you using for common names and people who share names?

[Gerard McDonald]

Again, we use the three pieces of data that are first given to us. One is the name, one is the date of birth, and the third is the gender. So while there may be many common names, people with the same date of birth are far less common, although I would certainly note that it's not impossible. If the name and the gender and the date of birth all match, the call would then be placed to us. We have more information on these individuals on file and then we can converse with the airline to determine whether or not the person who is standing in front of them is indeed the person who is on the list.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

What type of identification do you require for date of birth?

[Gerard McDonald]

A government-issued piece of identification.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

My friend Ms. Glover has some questions.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome you all here as well.

It is a pleasure to have you here at our committee.

I am very glad we take security on our aircraft seriously, particularly when we look at incidents like Christmas Day. It is becoming more and more apparent how the threat of terrorism can affect all of us. We have unfortunately lost some Canadians in terrorist attacks. I am glad we do have some measures in place to protect our security.

We've dealt with hypotheticals a lot today. I would like to ask some direct questions, but I'm not sure whether you're permitted to answer them. So please feel free to tell me if you are not.

How many people are on our passenger protect specified persons list?

[Gerard McDonald]

That is something I can't answer.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Okay, thank you.

The other questions I have are specific to some questions already asked.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj asked a question about photographs. Do you have photographs of each and every one of the people who are on the specified persons list?

[Gerard McDonald]

We do have photographs of some, but not necessarily all people who are on the list.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Very good.

I used to work in law enforcement, and we too do not have pictures of every single person we deal with. So given that you don't have pictures of everyone, it would be impossible to look at a picture and use that in every case as another identifier. I just wanted to help make sure we cleared that up.

There is one case that you suggested is before the courts at this time.

[Gerard McDonald]

That's correct.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

While this is being debated in court, is that person still restricted and on the specified persons list?

[Gerard McDonald]

I can't comment on whether people are on or off the list.