Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registered.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Just further to that, it doesn't mean that if we found 13 we would stop. The old system would come up on that person and would tell us that he had guns. If there was a court order to say he shouldn't have his 13 guns, or one gun, we would search that entire house, his garage, and possibly even his cottage to ensure that we got all the guns.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Right, but if you know there are 13 registered and you have found 10, you are going to keep looking for at least 3 more, correct?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Also, if we find 13 guns, we're going to keep searching. The number doesn't matter, is what I'm trying to say. You're counting guns.
I think it's important here. We're not against licensing. We're not here to tell you that we're against licensing. Licensing is a great system. It should be enhanced, and I think the money would be better served on that. The registration seems to get skewed, as I listen back and forth here, but licensing and registration are the same things.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
What about all the other points that the chair asked for consideration--
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Yes, if you would stop interrupting, they'd probably answer.
Do you want to just deal with the second point on suicide? And if there are 13 guns registered--
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
I can go through my own. I have a list here, Mr. Chair, if you wish.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Please give him the second one quickly. Let's get going. We're way over time.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Domestic violence. If there's a call and a complaint or a violent situation and you go in and you suspect there could be some problems, and you may not remove the person--you may, but either one--and you know, through the registration system, that there are 13 guns and you've decided you're going to remove those guns, because there could be a risk--
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
We attend any domestic call, and if there is any insinuation that there's a weapon on the premises, we're going to take it--warrant, no warrant, court order, or whatever. We are going to rid the premises of any potential source of danger.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Well, you can cut me off. You're the one who suggested an extension.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
May 6th, 2010 / 5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you.
My good friend Mr. Kania is a lawyer and now he's somewhat debating the issue with you, but I think everybody understood the issue. As police officers I believe what you're trying to tell them is, it doesn't matter. If that's the case, does it matter if the registry says there are 13 guns?
Would it be the case that when you took the 14th gun, my friend, who is a good lawyer, would then argue that you exceeded your powers because the registry only said 13?
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, he certainly could argue that if it was listed on a warrant that we were only allowed, by a judge, to search for the 13 firearms, and after the 13th firearm we found, we weren't allowed to search any further.... We're only allowed if it was an order, and a court order, if we're going to get into law. My understanding is we can only search until we find everything that's issued on the warrant, at which time we're supposed to stop, depending on the warrant, of course.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I think you've made the point, and it's an appropriate point, that if it didn't say there were any firearms in the house and you had a belief that there were, you could search the house, under the Criminal Code as it is today.
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Certainly we could, and certainly if the person was a licensed individual and we didn't find them in his own house and he was living with his girlfriend, we would search that house anyway, even though the firearms were registered to his home in another area of town or another city. We would search it for the safety of the person who is there.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I think that's the essence of what we've been saying. This side...and we heard “The Conservatives...”--whatever. It's not true. What we believe firmly in is gun control--effective, efficient gun control--and the registry as such is not gun control. We end up with better gun control through tougher licensing and through tougher controls on firearms getting into the hands of people in the first place, even the illegal firearms. It just seems that the debate gets lost over the value of the registry, and every time someone since then has been killed with a long gun, it's one more piece of evidence that the long-gun registry didn't do what it was intended to do. We need strong licensing and strong enforcement, and the money might better be spent to do those things.
Would anybody disagree with that?
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Very recently, sir, in Winnipeg, three police officers were shot in the line of duty by a drug dealer who didn't have a firearms licence. The shotgun he used was not registered, and he had lived in that house for years. There's a perfect example. Registry or no registry, we cannot trust the information, and police officers go into every call having to trust their training and having to be vigilant at all times to be aware of potential danger.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I have one last thing. Police officers have been trained for years now--certainly in Ontario, so I would ask you about other parts of the country--to remember that every time you attend a call, there is a firearm there because you brought it. Is that a fair assessment?